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Author Topic: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here  (Read 104120 times)

WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #780 on: April 21, 2017, 08:04:52 AM »
Hello fellow epi fans, been intending on weighing in here, but been immersed in home renovations. Just a quick summary, more later:

1.  I agree with Gabriela, I believe E. davidii EMR 4125 (which has strong incurved well-developed spurs) is confused in horticultural commerce with ecalcaratum. I saw such confusion recently with plants labels as platypetalum which were instead ecalcaratum.

It is possible that some people confuse EMR4125 with ecalcaratum but I cannot agree that this plant (which Gerrit and I have) is ecalcaratum. If anything, I would lean more to it being a hybrid (possibly with ecalcaratum genes or....) but it grows like davidii and some flowers have fully formed spurs like davidii (never seen an ecalcaratum with fully developed spurs). Like you said, the switch could very easily happen....a seedling next to EMR4125 being divided and added to a bacth of plants ready for sale is just what it takes. In leaf it would be impossible to see the difference between EMR4125 and this "spurless" form.

I can understand the confusion with platypetalum though...even the original description from 1991 of ecalcaratum states: "Proximum E. platypetalo K. Meyer, sed foliolis 3 vel 5, ovatis vel anguste ovatis, basi obliquis; foliis caulinis 2 vel 3, oppositis vel alternis differt" (Resembles E. platypetalum K Meyer, except that it has 3 to 5 basal leaves, which are ovate to narrowly ovate, with an assymetrical base; 2 to 3 cauline leaves, opposite or alternating.)

2. I do not agree that ecalcaratum and davidii are one and the same.  Nor do I think it is prudent to label a plant that has the traits of ecalcaratum (variably shaped to absent vestigial spurs) as E. davidii "forma spurless", this is inviting more confusion.

I would not say that ecalcaratum and davidii are the same either, it's just what Mark told me and I wonder what Darrell does really say about that. I have to agree that it is not a good idea to label this one as daviddi, spurless form, though! But it would be just as unprudent to call it ecalcarartum. I would go for a cultivarname. As you see in the description it says vestigial spurs, I've never seen ecalcaratum with fully developed spurs. The original description doesn't even mention spurs.

3. I will ask Darrell on his thoughts on this.

Please do!

4. I will show a 2nd gen davidii hybrid that starts going nearly spurless and looking "ecalcaratum-esque".

Cool!

5. Wim, I'd like to discuss your Liliputian results (looking good, but would like to see whole plant) :)

Will do, just let me make some pics today!

6.  Darrell stopped by and showed me a mystery Epimedium (yet another Chen Yi one) that is essentially a rhizomatous davidii look-alike with very narrow floral parts (long very slender spurs) with very long stolons, which he believes is probably an Epimedium sp. nova.

Interesting, I guess China's still full of undiscovered species...I'd love to go and have a look at a few in the wild in a couple of years!

Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

Flemish Rock Garden society (VRV): http://www.vrvforum.be/
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #781 on: April 21, 2017, 08:18:03 AM »
Wim, I'm most interested in seeing whole plant views of your Alpha & Beta offspring from Liliputian, to see the plant habit and relative size of flowers to the plant.

As you know, I've been working with 'Liliputian' to breed for smaller epimediums. In the long run, I've only made a few selections because I find some traits to be variable year to year, looking for more reliable performers. My best selection so far stands out because of the following: extra compact small size, tiny leaflets, profuse flowers like a miniaturized pink grandiflorum sitting above the foliage. Probably will be tough to propagate as the rhizomes seems congested.

This is from 2010 seed on Liliputian (both OP and some hand pollination), selected in 2014 for further eval.

The last photo is at early flowering, my pointed finger for scale comparison with tiny leaflets.

I'll take some pics today, without the flowers, since they stopped flowering already. And since it is only their first year flowering, they won't be representative for the following years yet!

I find Lilliputian itself not to be very reliable either (some years it doesn't even flower over here). My selections are all hand pollinated and some seem to be very small too (but haven't flowered yet). I intend to cross them back with Lilliputian as pollen parent. I don't intend to name the ones I showed because I want to select only the best and I want "Big flowers, small plant, flowering well above the leaves, nice coloured, small leaves and very low second flush." Some of my plants seem to be developing a more open root-structure (unlike youngianum which is very congested and often hard to divide).

Your mini pink grandi is wonderfull, very floriferous and really tiny, just how I like it, like a small pink cloud in the garden.
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

Flemish Rock Garden society (VRV): http://www.vrvforum.be/
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #782 on: April 21, 2017, 08:20:40 AM »
Back to davidii hybrids:

1. start with these two E. davidii EMR hybrids, on the right is one that looks like classic davidii, but is much better flowering (more prolific) than the EMR form. One the left is a typical result of davidii hybrids, vey small yellow and red or yellow and pink flowers, this one has pinkish-red sepals.

2. same two davidii hybrids in a previous year, the flower difference can be seen better here.

3. two hybrids that resulted from growing OP seed of the small-flowered yellow and pink davidii hybrid.  Wow, look at what shows up, on the left is a very nice davidii type hybrid but with enlarges white sepals (on the left), but on the right is what looks like E. campanulatum (however that species doesn't have spurs, not even rudimentary ones), but it has vestigial spurs, and not a full set of spur "bumps", sometimes just 1 vestigial spur. Looks more akin to ecalcaratum (although it's a species I do not have, I do have campanulatum).

4.  closer view of the 2nd gen davidii hybrid that's starting to look like ecalcaratum  :D

Nice hybrids, Mark! Love the one with white sepals especially!...I guess some of them hybridized with campanulatum.
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

Flemish Rock Garden society (VRV): http://www.vrvforum.be/
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #783 on: April 21, 2017, 03:28:05 PM »
Let's have a look....

Alpha is a cross between Lilliputian as seed parent and E. grandiflorum 'Mizuhomaru' as pollen parent. 8 cm in tall in flower but 16 cm tall after the second flush. The only things I like are the flower colour and the colour of the young leaves. It grows too tall and flowers under the leaves, which is a big no-no for me. Will see what it does next year though.

Forgot to add, that the flowers, when just opening are a lot paler, they go darker as the flower gets older (after +/- 2 days)...see pic of young flowers attached.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:37:23 PM by WimB »
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

Flemish Rock Garden society (VRV): http://www.vrvforum.be/
Facebook page VRV: http://www.facebook.com/pages/VRV-Vlaamse-Rotsplanten-Vereniging/351755598192270

WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #784 on: April 21, 2017, 03:35:09 PM »
Beta is completely different, a cross between Lilliputian as seed parent and E. epsteinii as pollen parent, it's 2nd flush stays a lot lower, only 8 cm. It did flower above the leaves, I like the flower colour but I really dislike the pale (unhealthy looking) young leaves. My epsteinii (an Epi I once bought as Epimedium sp. from Chen Yi years ago) has such pale leaves too.
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #785 on: April 21, 2017, 04:00:04 PM »
Two other examples, which haven't flowered yet...2nd flush 9 cm tall, cross with lilliputian as seed-parent and E. grandiflorum 'Akagi Sakura' as pollen parent (gamma).
And one which is very similar to lilliputian, a cross with grandiflorum 'Mukawa Genpei' (delta)...not bigger than 3 cm...that's what Lilliputian does too (see picture). My Lilliputian comes with strings attached this year ;-) Last year it didn't want to flower, this year it has 9 flower stalks...

Saw two new ones with Daniëlle yesterday with which I'd like to try a cross, both from Graham Gough and quite small: Epimedium grandiflorum 'White Winkie' (very small for a grandiflorum and very floriferous) and Epimedium 'Prince Shrimp', very nice form too...
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #786 on: April 21, 2017, 11:19:44 PM »
Let's have a look....

Alpha is a cross between Lilliputian as seed parent and E. grandiflorum 'Mizuhomaru' as pollen parent. 8 cm in tall in flower but 16 cm tall after the second flush. The only things I like are the flower colour and the colour of the young leaves. It grows too tall and flowers under the leaves, which is a big no-no for me. Will see what it does next year though.

Forgot to add, that the flowers, when just opening are a lot paler, they go darker as the flower gets older (after +/- 2 days)...see pic of young flowers attached.

Thanks Wim for the commentary on your crosses, you have clear hybridization objectives, and honest assessment of the resulting hybrid characteristics, both pros and cons.  How unusual that Alpha starts out light color then deepens with age, one would think it behaves the other way around. That's a cool trait.  I would not have occurred to me to use grandiflorum 'Mizuhomura', but perhaps to exploit the uniquely incurved spurs on that interesting cultivar. It's fascinating to see that your Alpha has indeed inherited the tightly incurved spurs. Too bad the flowers are nestled among the leaves.

By the way, I only added Mizuhomaru a couple years ago, but have a hybrid from several years previous that has strongly incurved spurs, not sure where the characteristic came from, I attach 3 photos.

Your Beta has really good flower form and color (influence of epsteinii is apparent), but I see what you're saying about the yellowish foliage color. Epimedium epsteinii does not have the will to flourish here, it barely survives, wish I knew how to please it, I'm thinking it might not be the most hardy of species.

I like that you're putting equal weight in your evaluation process on flowers and foliage, the foliage aspect is so important, your Gamma & Delta show this, thanks for showing the foliage. I do not know either of the grandiflorum cultivars you used, looked up 'Mukawa Genpei' and see that it has that strong pink-white contrast like 'Princess Susan' (I attribute the pollen parent in my liliputian "mini pink grandi" to 'Princess Susan', I use it a lot because it tends to rebloom and I like the flower colors).  I've not heard of 'White Winkie' and 'Prince Shrimp', will look them up. Unfortunate name choice with "White Winkie', google winky or winkies to see what I mean :-;

Three photos of a hybrid I selected in 2013 as at least pretty enough to get planted out in my garden, then I re-selected it in 2015 for it's floriferous character and the strong incurved spurs, then in 2016 decided it was good enough to name, because it is so dang floriferous.  Has nothing to do with Liliputian, just a side note from your mention of Mizuhomaru.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:56:47 AM by TheOnionMan »
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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #787 on: April 21, 2017, 11:25:47 PM »
And now for something completely different, this is from OP seed of E. grandiflorum f. flavescens 'Chocolate Lace'. It has these uniquely puckered oval leaves, dark chocolate color in spring, but still stands out when all green in summer because of the unique leaf shape and "leaf build". I made this selection last year, 2016, it will remain under evaluation for another couple years, and I may use it for further hybridization for better flowering. I have nicknamed it 'Chocolate Morsels'.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:31:01 PM by TheOnionMan »
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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #788 on: April 21, 2017, 11:55:39 PM »
When I initially started working with 'Liliputian', I single out some seedlings and planted them out to see how they express themselves growth-wise over several years.

1.  One in particular was outrageously floriferous, but it doesn't flower as prolifically every year, thus not to be named.

2.  Image #2 shows an area planted with selected Liliputian progeny, notice the dark color leaves on one of them, and the ultra floriferous one compared to others.

3.  Image #3 shows one that I like (but not to be named), with bronzed foliage in good leaf build, and perky white flowers well above the foliage, reminds me of youngianum 'Azusa' in general disposition.

4.  Epimedium x youngianum 'Liliputian'
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #789 on: April 22, 2017, 02:08:44 AM »
Aha, I found my earlier photos when I first realized the "mini pink grandiflorum" was something rather different, I include two photos that really show the scale difference, the epimedium plants on either side have normal sized leaves.  From 2014.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:02:13 PM by TheOnionMan »
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #790 on: April 22, 2017, 09:08:49 PM »
Thanks Wim for the commentary on your crosses, you have clear hybridization objectives, and honest assessment of the resulting hybrid characteristics, both pros and cons.  How unusual that Alpha starts out light color then deepens with age, one would think it behaves the other way around. That's a cool trait.  I would not have occurred to me to use grandiflorum 'Mizuhomura', but perhaps to exploit the uniquely incurved spurs on that interesting cultivar. It's fascinating to see that your Alpha has indeed inherited the tightly incurved spurs. Too bad the flowers are nestled among the leaves.

Yes, the change of colour in this way is interesting, like you said, one would expect it to be the other way round. It did retain some of the incurved spurs but not as distinct as in Mizuhomaru.
As for my objectives...I'll probably have the plant I really want in a few decades (maybe just in time for my retirement, LOL) and by that time someone else will probably have hybridized the perfect new cultivars. Oh well, it's great fun to do anyway!

By the way, I only added Mizuhomaru a couple years ago, but have a hybrid from several years previous that has strongly incurved spurs, not sure where the characteristic came from, I attach 3 photos.

That's a smart looking hybrid, very floriferous but a bit paler than Mizuhomaru and they spurs are a tad less incurved. I'd name that one! I've always wondered about the Japanese name of Mizuhomaru though...if I recall correctly, it could mean either 'Water Flame' (when Mizu Homaru) or 'Rice Circle' (when Mizuho Maru). Maybe one of our Japanese friends can shed some light on this?

Your Beta has really good flower form and color (influence of epsteinii is apparent), but I see what you're saying about the yellowish foliage color. Epimedium epsteinii does not have the will to flourish here, it barely survives, wish I knew how to please it, I'm thinking it might not be the most hardy of species.

E. epsteinii does quite well over here (but our winters aren't as harsh as yours), it does need some watering in summer though. I love the flowers (good size, good colour) and the height of the plant but it flowers among the too pale leaves and it makes a very loose clump.

I like that you're putting equal weight in your evaluation process on flowers and foliage, the foliage aspect is so important, your Gamma & Delta show this, thanks for showing the foliage. I do not know either of the grandiflorum cultivars you used, looked up 'Mukawa Genpei' and see that it has that strong pink-white contrast like 'Princess Susan' (I attribute the pollen parent in my liliputian "mini pink grandi" to 'Princess Susan', I use it a lot because it tends to rebloom and I like the flower colors).  I've not heard of 'White Winkie' and 'Prince Shrimp', will look them up. Unfortunate name choice with "White Winkie', google winky or winkies to see what I mean :-;

For me the foliage should be more important (it's what you see for 9/12 or 8/12 of the year, whereas you see the flowers for 1/12 of the year). Pics of Mukawa Genpei and Akagi (S)(Z)akura attached.
As for White Winkie and Prince Shrimp, you won't find them on the net yet, since they are brand new. I'll try to take some pics of them next week. I googled winky and I LOLed a bit, especially since the first link on the Belgian (Dutch/Flemish speaking) google was to a children's nursery in The Netherlands called "Winkies"...I guess they didn't look up the English meaning of the word....or they did  :-\ . 'White Winkie" was named by a native speaker though, but I guess it's Graham's (dare I say British ;D ) kind of humour...he named the other one 'Prince Shrimp' in response to Epimedium 'King Prawn' (by Julian Sutton from Desirable Plants)

Three photos of a hybrid I selected in 2013 as at least pretty enough to get planted out in my garden, then I re-selected it in 2015 for it's floriferous character and the strong incurved spurs, then in 2016 decided it was good enough to name, because it is so dang floriferous.  Has nothing to do with Liliputian, just a side note from your mention of Mizuhomaru.

Perfect, like I said above... the colour reminds me of Rose Quartz or Morganite
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #791 on: April 22, 2017, 09:16:11 PM »
And now for something completely different, this is from OP seed of E. grandiflorum f. flavescens 'Chocolate Lace'. It has these uniquely puckered oval leaves, dark chocolate color in spring, but still stands out when all green in summer because of the unique leaf shape and "leaf build". I made this selection last year, 2016, it will remain under evaluation for another couple years, and I may use it for further hybridization for better flowering. I have nicknamed it 'Chocolate Morsels'.

That one I like, the contrast between the flowers and the leaves is great. And the leaves on themselves are great too, they have that rounded shield shape going. I don't grow chocolate lace and have never seen it in real life, but I looked it up and those leaves are yummy! But I like yours even more, the brown covers the leaves completely. I'd cross with your plant to get those dark leaves combined with darker yellow flowers; to create a chocolate and banana split.  ;D Love the nickname, btw.
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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #792 on: April 22, 2017, 09:22:06 PM »
When I initially started working with 'Liliputian', I single out some seedlings and planted them out to see how they express themselves growth-wise over several years.

1.  One in particular was outrageously floriferous, but it doesn't flower as prolifically every year, thus not to be named.

2.  Image #2 shows an area planted with selected Liliputian progeny, notice the dark color leaves on one of them, and the ultra floriferous one compared to others.

3.  Image #3 shows one that I like (but not to be named), with bronzed foliage in good leaf build, and perky white flowers well above the foliage, reminds me of youngianum 'Azusa' in general disposition.

4.  Epimedium x youngianum 'Liliputian'

That very floriferous one is a noticeable aprovement, as is the bronze foliaged form (it does resemble Azusa a bit in the way it grows, indeed. Except for the whitish veins of course.)

I wouldn't name any of the three either...even though the improved floriferous form would tempt me a lot, but those two are very worthy of more hybridizing-work.
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

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WimB

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #793 on: April 22, 2017, 09:24:03 PM »
Aha, I found my earlier photos when I first realized the "mini pink grandiflorum" was something rather different, I include two photos that really show the scale difference, the epimedium plants on either side have normal sized leaves.  From 2014.

I love this Pink Pygmy, name that one and export it to Europe  ;)  ;D
Wim Boens - Secretary VRV (Flemish Rock Garden Society) - Seed exchange manager Crocus Group
Wingene Belgium zone 8a

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Re: Epimedium - various threads gathered together here
« Reply #794 on: April 24, 2017, 02:33:51 AM »
Mark - your hybrids are all very beautiful  :) I am partial to the little plants in general.
I am trying to increase my evergreens Epimediums but not doing any controlled crosses, just for fun and because they are so easy to grow from seeds.

My first to flower is a hybrid from OP E. davidii 'Wolong Dwarf' - not fully open but I don't have patience, very spidery and about 15 cm tall.
576074-0

It goes through a tremendous transformation from the flower buds - fully open flowers
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