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Author Topic: Terrestrial Orchids 2017  (Read 10467 times)

Yann

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2017, 12:40:57 PM »
fantastic, is there a microclimate in Scotland?
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Steve Garvie

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2017, 06:40:17 PM »
Thanks Yann. There are numerous micro-climates in Scotland.
I live on the edge of the inner Firth of Forth estuary -at the "waist" of Scotland. My garden is about 6m above sea level and has a distinctly maritime climate (without the salt spray) which means that I usually avoid extremes of cold. My garden is south-facing as are my greenhouses and so they warm up quickly on sunny days even in mid-winter. I find that many of my plants are ahead of other growers living inland by a week or two.
WILDLIFE PHOTOSTREAM: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rainbirder/


Steve
West Fife, Scotland.

sokol

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2017, 09:01:27 PM »
Your pictures are phantastic Steve.

But I don't agree with all of your names. Your first O. leochroma has a much too bright basal field. O. leochroma has a very dark one. I suppose it is O. tenthredinifera. Regarding the flowering time your second O. leochroma is also O. tenthredinifera as O. leochroma flowers much later than O. tenthredinifera.
I don't know what your O. lutea really is, probably a member of the O. subfusca group but it is surely not O. lutea.
Stefan
Southern Bavaria, zone 7a

Yann

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2017, 10:33:20 PM »
leochroma has larger W mark, a label rolled up (not always) and no hair on the appendix, other tenthredinifera subsp. and main specie has hairs.
We don't see the whole plant but leochroma looks usually stronger. I've seen in south of Greece and Crete plants with pale green sepals completly different from the deep colored plants of Rhodes and Samos. Archanes spots are known for their pale sepals.

Here's a fine document : https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B74GKpOnhkpJMHlHbTNGcS1OUkk

fusca group is certainly the one to give headache  :-\
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 10:34:52 PM by Yann »
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Steve Garvie

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2017, 11:53:11 PM »
Thanks Sokol. Ophrys are so variable that I struggle with the proliferation of species that some taxonomists propose. Perhaps I should label my images as "O. tenthredinifera group" and "O. lutea group".

My "leochroma" were raised from seed collected in Crete. This provenance precludes them from being tenthredinifera in the strict sense.
O. leochroma, O. villosa and O. dictynnae are all present on Crete with leochroma being late-flowering and dictynnae early flowering but the flowering time of a cultivated plant doesn't have the same significance as in the wild.

I wouldn't argue with your comments regarding my O. lutea image -this plant always flowers early in my collection and is very underwhelming as subfusca types are. I have other plants of the O. lutea group which flower later and look better.
In 2013 Pierre Devillers and Jean Devillers-Terschuren merged the O. subfusca group with the O. lutea group. (Devillers, P. & Devillers-Terschuren, J. 2013.- Pseudophrys du groupe d'Ophrys lutea: un aperçu. Natural. belges 94 (Orchid. 26): 115-164).
WILDLIFE PHOTOSTREAM: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rainbirder/


Steve
West Fife, Scotland.

sokol

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 05:39:59 AM »
Thanks Yann for the link and Steve for clarification of the first plants and response.

If you had called them "O. tenthredinifera group" and "O. lutea group" it would be correct but superficial and we would'nt had any discussion.

Regarding the provenance, flowering time and the article of Paulus & Hirth your first plants should be O. dictynnae or the not described O. "dimidiata". I know from our annual discussions with both of them how difficult it is to distinguish the different species of tenthredinifera s.l. and how they struggle to understand the differences between O. dictynnae and O. "dimidiata". On the contrary the pollinators always knew very well which is which.

Even when Delforge changes his groupes and we know all that there are very artificial groups, there are simiarities of this former group like the pulvinate lip.

Stefan
Southern Bavaria, zone 7a

SteveC2

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 06:32:22 PM »
Steve, you are a good month or more ahead of Lincolnshire.  I have no Ophrys spikes showing as yet, and I'd have to see the sun to have the greenhouses warm up. Coastal clag and fog all week here.
As for the confusion over the names all I have to say is "God save lumpers!"  Must admit, the book I used on Crete last year, Kretzchmar and Eccarius, reckons tenthredinifera was present though I didn't find any.

joost

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 06:40:17 PM »
For the orchids of Greece and Crete, I think the book from Antonis Alibertis, The self-sown orchids of Greece is a nice one to use.

mark smyth

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 06:53:29 PM »
I repotted all of mine last summer. Too many are no shows despite the mild weather
Antrim, Northern Ireland Z8
www.snowdropinfo.com / www.marksgardenplants.com / www.saveourswifts.co.uk

When the swifts arrive empty the green house

All photos taken with a Canon 900T and 230

Yann

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 10:53:51 PM »
Yes Antonis book is a must have, pricey but usefull.
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sokol

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2017, 08:11:09 AM »
I don't have it because of the high price and haven't even seen it. I am waiting for a probably better one of Antonopoulos & Tsiftsis with detailled distribution maps.
Stefan
Southern Bavaria, zone 7a

SteveC2

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2017, 10:04:30 AM »
While we were on Crete my wife found a copy of the Bee Orchids of Greece by Antonopoulos.  It was quite expensive so I said "No thanks" but she bought it for me anyway.  Lovely book, nice photographs, but a splitters' dream and very much contradicted the other identification sources that I had with me.  Seems every new publication just makes things more complicated and they are certainly not all singing the same song.  Seems to me that the naming of Ophrys is in total chaos and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

joost

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2017, 10:33:28 AM »
I bought the book while I was looking for orchids around Spili, Antonis was selling the books from his 4wheeldrive car boot, in the field. Couldn't resist but forgot to ask him to sign the book for me.

sokol

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2017, 02:21:53 PM »
Seems to me that the naming of Ophrys is in total chaos and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't say chaos but nature isn't always easy to understand.
Stefan
Southern Bavaria, zone 7a

sokol

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Re: Terrestrial Orchids 2017
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2017, 02:26:12 PM »
I bought the book while I was looking for orchids around Spili, Antonis was selling the books from his 4wheeldrive car boot, in the field. Couldn't resist but forgot to ask him to sign the book for me.

Prudent tradesman, he knows where to find his customers.
Stefan
Southern Bavaria, zone 7a

 

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