Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: David Nicholson on January 08, 2008, 08:45:38 PM

Title: Lilium species
Post by: David Nicholson on January 08, 2008, 08:45:38 PM
In other threads Gene Mirro, Rob Krejzl and Martin Baxendale have referred to growing Lilium species from seed. I wonder if some of them, or indeed all of them, might be prepared to share with us their Lilium seed sowing  and raising regimes. I ask having just read Lilies-A Guide for growers and Collectors by Edward Austin McRae- and frightened myself to death with the apparent technicalities involved, that mitigate my normal seed sowing regime of put 'em in a pot, cover 'em with grit, shove 'em outside, and leave 'em too it. I for one would be very grateful.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on January 08, 2008, 10:00:45 PM
For western US species germination, take a look at this article :
[attachurl=1]

For species lilies in general, I'll post something tonight when I get home from work.  But I will tell you this:  germination may take a long time, but it's the easy part.  The hard part is keeping the plants alive through hot summer weather.  If the bulbs get too warm, they rot.  This does not apply to modern hybrids, which are bulletproof.  By the way, there are lots of other plants that have complex germination requirements, such as Peony and Corydalis for example.  But none of them are as hard to keep alive as species lilies, in my opinion.

Edit: broken links removed and Western Species Germination notes added.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 08, 2008, 10:31:26 PM
David,

Most of the technicalities arise when you're trying to hurry types with delayed germination along - when you try to germinate seed as soon as you can after it arrives from an exchange and then (perhaps) have to grow it indoors through a dark winter. If your climate consists of a warmish, moist autumn followed by a cool to cold winter, especially if you're sowing your own, fresh, seed as it ripens, your normal regime will work OK (but you'll note that McRae suggests a little winter shelter, to give protection from excessive cold and too much rain).

I've used variations on the baggie method for types with delayed germination. As McRae says the amount of moisture in the medium is critical. So is regular examination of the plastic bags, since the seed sometimes hasn't read the same books we have. When you move the seed on from the first stage of incubation to the next is as much a function of when you can expect/supply good growing conditions as the readiness of the seed itself. Though lily seedlings can shrug off light frosts with no apparent damage, anything too cold is obviously a check. Once they're in growth it's best if you can persuade them that spring lasts forever. I've certainly had some WA hybrid seedlings remain in growth for more than a year just by keeping them cool and brightly lit.

The foregoing is just the observations of a relative beginner; I'm sure that Gene has much more valuable advice to give.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on January 08, 2008, 10:50:53 PM
Yes, I've killed more lilies than anyone, so that makes me a GURU !   ;D
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Martin Baxendale on January 08, 2008, 11:35:58 PM
For lily scales I use the same system of plastic bags with moist vermiculite that I use for snowdrop and narcissus chipping. I find that lily scales will produce bulbils if taken at any time of year, either when the parent bulbs are in growth or when they're dormant in winter.

Like Rob, I've used the same bags of moist vermiculite for delayed-germination lily seed like L. martagon, sowing in autumn, keeping warm in a cupboard until germination, then chilling in the fridge during late winter and transferring to pots in Spring.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 09, 2008, 12:00:58 AM
Quote
Yes, I've killed more lilies than anyone, so that makes me a GURU ! 

It wouldn't be interesting if it was too easy.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on January 09, 2008, 05:28:31 AM
Here is another good link:  http://lilyseed.com/growing_species.html (http://lilyseed.com/growing_species.html)

The main germination types are:
1.  immediate epigeal:  sow at 20C and wait a few weeks.  Easy.  lankongense, davidi, trumpets, asiatics.
2.  delayed hypogeal:  sow at 20-25C, allow 3-4 months to form a tiny bulb, then 4 months at 5C to break leaf dormancy.  Usually take 3 or more years to reach bloom size.  canadense, superbum, martagon.

There are other types, but I can't cover everything in this post.  In general, if you sow the seed and keep it at 20C for 3-4 months, then at 5C for a few months, nearly every species of lily will germinate.  Some seeds will require two warm-cold cycles.  Do not place the pots in direct sun, and do not allow them to dry out.  Most books on lilies have extensive lists of species and germination types.  I have not read McRae's book, but Rob is correct in saying that it's easy until you start trying to push the process. 

I don't use the baggies or the vermiculite.  I just plant the seeds in 4 inch square nursery pots, because I don't have the time or inclination to handle germinating seeds individually.  It's a matter of personal preference.

If you understand and follow the directions in my PNWLS presentation, you should be able to grow most of the species.  The bulbs MUST be kept cool at all times, or they will become vulnerable to Fusarium basal rot.  This is why I now grow many lilies on an inverted-season schedule, under lights in the basement in Winter.  This also works wonderfully for many alpines.  If you are in a hot climate, arrange for shade in the afternoon.  Do not grow lilies in bare ground exposed to the sun.  Shade with companion plants or bark mulch.  Again, the modern hybrids are much easier to grow than the species.  The negative is that you can't grow the hybrids from seed.  And purchased bulbs are often full of virus disease.  That is why I don't plant bulbs in my garden.  I grow only from seed.

The excerpt on my website from "Studies in Gardening" will give you an idea of how finicky some of the species are.  It was written in 1916, and they haven't gotten any easier to grow since then.  It was written for gardeners in the British Isles by a gentleman named A. Clutton-Brock. 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Guff on January 09, 2008, 05:32:05 AM
I have grown Oriental and Asiatic lily from seed. I soak the seeds over night, and then spread them out, onto the surface of the soil mix. I don't put any top grit or soil. Then I place them on a  heating mat, and in about 2-4 weeks they start to germinate. I suppose a heating mat isn't required, just a warm spot.



Heres a link, very detailed. I wouldn't worry about pricking them out. I prick them out at first, but so many germinated it was alot of work. Plus I noticed that being so close didn't matter, they grow fine being close. When they get bigger in 1-2 years then you can separate the seedling bulbs.

http://www.mikesbackyardgarden.org/lilyprop2.html
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Katherine J on January 09, 2008, 08:13:07 AM
Hello, dear Lily-masters!
Thank you for the interesting lessons  :)
I have sown Lilium martagon this autumn (end of September). The seeds were dated 2005!!! I put them on the surface of the compost, covered with grit, and left it out. There has been frost for about a month here. Have I any chance, or can throw them away?
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 09, 2008, 08:33:38 AM
Quote
Have I any chance

Yes. Even if they don't germinate this year it's worth keeping the pot for several more years before throwing it away, but the chances are that a good portion will already have started germinating. If you need reassurance just carefully pull back the grit and you should be able to see small rooted bulbs just waiting for spring.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Katherine J on January 09, 2008, 08:43:23 AM
Thanks, Rob! It's good news. :-*
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Cris on January 09, 2008, 04:07:38 PM
Hi

I'll receive some seeds of Lillium philadelphicum. Can you give me some advices to make them germinate and grow healthy?
They are plants of cold places, can the seeds be outdoor?

Tanks
Cris
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Katherine J on January 09, 2008, 04:17:04 PM
Just look at this, Cris:
  [url]http://home.comcast.net/~gmirro/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html[/url] ([url]http://home.comcast.net/~gmirro/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html[/url]) 

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Nicholson on January 09, 2008, 04:30:03 PM
Thanks indeed to Rob, Martin, Guff and especially to Gene Mirro for some cracking advice for aspiring Lilium seed growers. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on January 09, 2008, 06:57:07 PM
Cris, L. philadelphicum is very difficult.  Seed germination is unpredictable and irregular, and the plants grow very slowly and have low survival rates.  It is very strange, because in nature they grow in a wide range of conditions. 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 09, 2008, 07:39:59 PM
The best seed source for philadelphicum I know of is a certain canadian member of this forum - good quick germination. Whether they survive into a 3rd year will be the question.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 09, 2008, 09:07:06 PM
It does all sound terribly technical though. Don't be put off David. Because, in general, your usual method of (and I quote) "put 'em in a pot, cover 'em with grit, shove 'em outside, and leave 'em to it." works very well with all the lilies I've tried from seed which is all the species I have, from nanum and other small species, to martgons, chalcedonicum, parryi, primulinum, nepalense, auratum, speciosum hansonii, canadense and perhaps a couple of dozen of others, It's just a matter of waiting for some. But that's true of all bulbous plants - look at Trillium as an example. Some come this year, some next or the year after or the one after that. In general, I give seedlings water while they're in growth (i.e.visibly green leafed) and little or none while they're not. Seems to work all right.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on January 10, 2008, 01:35:03 AM
Lesley, we don't  all have your climatic conditions.  Lilies may grow like weeds for you there, but may be nearly impossible for Cris in Portugal, because the summer temperatures there may be 10C higher than on South Island.  This is the problem that gardeners on the US East Coast have with English gardening books, which are often written as if God had inscribed them on gold tablets.  But they don't apply to hot non-maritime continental climates.  So this is why I warn over and over again that the bulbs must be kept cool. 

With regard to germination, if you review my posts, you will see that I agree with you that it is not that difficult.  If you have a delayed hypogeal germinator, and if you don't give them the initial warm period, you will have to wait one extra year to get them to germinate.  No big deal.  Serious gardeners may want to understand why different seeds behave differently, so the explanation of the various germination types is useful for them.  But you need to make sure that the seed flat does not bake in the sun or go dry while you are waiting for germination to occur.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 10, 2008, 04:17:08 AM
Point taken Gene. In spite of all the moaning and girning we/I do about the climate here, I acknowledge we are truly blest when it comes to the cultivation of most temperate plants. I'd certianly keep all lily seed/seedlings cool as well as well-drained in winter. I've never had to resort to bring such things under cover for darker months. I'm the one that needs that. :)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 10, 2008, 06:22:17 AM
Quote
This is the problem that gardeners on the US East Coast have with English gardening books, which are often written as if God had inscribed them on gold tablets.

This is also true of McRae's book, which has to be viewed in the light of his growing experience in Oregon. It's very hard for any of us to step outside our own conditions and make truly general comments.

This has been interesting. Thank you everyone.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Nicholson on January 10, 2008, 10:08:52 AM
Very interesting. I don't think I shall get rid of my very simplistic seed sowing regime but I shall certainly try some in plastic bags. One of my major problems is getting fridge space-our salad crisper currently contains 70% assorted seed in assorted boxes awaiting sowing, and 30% salad and some high level moaning is being done about the situation. 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Cris on January 10, 2008, 11:25:44 AM
"Cris, L. philadelphicum is very difficult.  Seed germination is unpredictable and irregular, and the plants grow very slowly and have low survival rates.  It is very strange, because in nature they grow in a wide range of conditions."

Gene Mirro,  :'( :'( :'( I have such a eye to the difficult seeds!!!!!
Tanks, I'll sow them and hope the survive.


Kathrine, thanks, I'll take a look.

I've sown Lilium formosanum and they germinated very well. I've soaked them in water for two days, then sown, and after some weeks they've germinate strongly.
Now the little plants are very healty, it's great to look at them.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 10, 2008, 07:14:46 PM
Is it correct that Lilium philipinense is synonymous with L. formosanum? I ask because I've been told it is so but mine (as philipinense) has a wider trumpet, with not so narrow a funnel, as my L. formosanum v. pricei, which of course is smaller but I would have expected it to be simply a much lower version of L. formosanum. It also flowers 2 or 3 or 4 weeks later.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Nicholson on January 10, 2008, 08:31:12 PM
Is it correct that Lilium philipinense is synonymous with L. formosanum? I ask because I've been told it is so but mine (as philipinense) has a wider trumpet, with not so narrow a funnel, as my L. formosanum v. pricei, which of course is smaller but I would have expected it to be simply a much lower version of L. formosanum. It also flowers 2 or 3 or 4 weeks later.

It wasn't in 1998 according to McRae Lesley although he says it closely resembled formosanum in many respects. He also says that philppinense can acheive flowering size from seed within 8 months.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Pilling on January 10, 2008, 08:54:23 PM
It wasn't in 1998 according to McRae Lesley although he says it closely resembled formosanum in many respects. He also says that philppinense can acheive flowering size from seed within 8 months.


Does he mention how to achieve flowering size in that time?

L. formosanum is touted as being fast growing but mine are making slow progress.

BTW there is a handy synonym finder at:

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 10, 2008, 09:47:36 PM
Quote
Is it correct that Lilium philipinense is synonymous with L. formosanum?


Depends who you read. As far as I know formosanum started out as philippinense v. formosanum, so the ambivalence was there from the start. A summary of the two descriptions can be found here (http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/sec6trumpet.htm), so you can at least try to identify yours. The real problem I'd say is keeping the seed pure. These two hybridise quite easily and the hybrids are vigorous and fertile.

Quote
L. formosanum is touted as being fast growing but mine are making slow progress.


Formosanum flowers in six months or so from seed in my garden. If yours isn't you may be growing it a little cold; it also doesn't like being too dry.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: t00lie on January 11, 2008, 08:01:52 AM
Currently flowering for the first time --Lilum duchartrei x Otago Alpine Group --seed sown 8/03.

Planted in a 20 litre poly trough with a few other Lilium sps seedlings it is 'running about' and coming up everywhere .

Cheers dave.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Paul T on January 11, 2008, 08:05:28 AM
Isn't it just glorious!!  A species I don't think I've ever seen a picture of that I didn't like.  Beautiful!!
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: t00lie on January 11, 2008, 08:45:02 AM
Paul

I have my fingers crossed that the other numerous growths are just not the stoloniferous stems from the flowering plant and that there will be some variation in the spotting as i planted 5 bulbs last year.

The duchartrei will have to lifted this autumn as they are in the same box as the 'North Americans ' which are yet to bloom and i have concerns about how the N/As will cope with the heavy competition.

Cheers Dave. 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on January 11, 2008, 07:46:58 PM
Dave,

I've had this and lankongense spear out of the side of poly boxes, so moving is probably a good idea just on general grounds.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Pilling on January 12, 2008, 09:27:35 PM
Formosanum flowers in six months or so from seed in my garden. If yours isn't you may be growing it a little cold; it also doesn't like being too dry.

Thanks. Having you say it is possible makes me believe.

Today I potted on some seedlings of L. Formosanum v. Pricei, which originated from Lesley Cox in June, one of those looked like it might grow a bit faster.

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on January 28, 2008, 01:08:09 AM
philippinense vs. formosanum:  check this out:

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2005-May/021318.html  (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2005-May/021318.html)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on March 06, 2008, 05:39:15 PM
Gene,
I read what you have written with great interest.
I am fairly successful with several species lilies both Chinese and American so I am probably in a better climate than you are.
Have you ever measured the actual soil temperatures? Warm and Cold are relative words and your cold may be my warm.
Göte
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Cris on September 03, 2008, 01:45:20 PM
I didn't found were i've posted about this plant, sorry :-[
After some mounths, there are some survivers. They still very litte (2cm max).
I water them very frequently ( I think I've killed some with no water).
What do you thing about it?
Do they will grow ?

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: 4moreaction on November 09, 2008, 08:39:08 PM
Currently flowering for the first time --Lilum duchartrei x Otago Alpine Group --seed sown 8/03.

Planted in a 20 litre poly trough with a few other Lilium sps seedlings it is 'running about' and coming up everywhere .

Just wondering if there could be possibility to get seeds of this beauty? =O)

Cheers dave.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: elilium71 on November 21, 2008, 03:57:00 PM
Hi Chris,
I have had some success with getting great germination of L. philadelphicum by starting the seed in a clear plastic sealed container. I think that L. philadelphicum requires high humidity to thrive as a seedling. I have 90% or better germination of seed. In one calendar year I have had the seedlings progress to having multiple leaves. Here is what I do. I start them in pure pearlite to keep fungus and other nasties out. I moisten the pearlite sprinkle the seeds on top of the pearlite. There is some debate if light aids germination. Put the container under a grow light and watch for germination. Once the seed has started to show green I add a very small amount 15ml to 4 inch plastic container of very dilute 1/4 or less the "full strength" fertilizer. (I used miracle grow in the past. And trying a different liquid fertilizer and have noticed no difference.) As the plants mature I add additional very weak fertilizer every other time I think of it. To transition the seedlings to low humidity conditions and regular potting mix. I have waited until they have 4 or more true leaves. I plant them in pre moistened seedling mix and place the entire pot in a plastic bag and seal it. Over the course of a week or more I open the bag for more and more time per day until they are open all day. After that I have treated them like other seedlings never letting them dry out completely.
I hope this helps.
Eric Duma
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Maggi Young on November 21, 2008, 04:15:56 PM
This all sounds like good advice, Eric, thank you!
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: 4moreaction on December 31, 2008, 07:43:13 PM
one interesting lily would be lilium canadense (red form)...
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on January 01, 2009, 12:48:51 PM
Matti,
Seed from that are usually available in the seed lists.
It is not particularly difficult if you have patience.
It is also frost hardy in mid Sweden so you should be fine
It like smoisture very much.
L canadense actually seeds itself occasionally in my place.

The one I would like to find is the unspotted light yellow one.

Göte
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 24, 2009, 10:20:59 PM
After a few years I have a seedling in flower today of Lilium chalcedonicum, seed from John Forrest. It is a glorious colour - orangey-scarlet and the pollen is exactly the same shade. I've hand-pollinated but of course it's a single clone. We shall see. Two more to bloom, next year perhaps.

Light rain this morning and very mild and muggy, following two days of gale force nor'west winds and temp in mid 30s. 35 on Friday and still 29 at midnight. Yesterday even higher. Beastly. On a rescue missions with the hose.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 24, 2009, 11:21:28 PM
Thanks Maggi, Soon as I'd posted this I thought I should have put it in the Lilium thread. Too lazy to change it. Well not really, but we had those very high temps on Friday and yesterday with 29C at midnight between the two days and I was still lying trying to sleep on Sat morning when I had to get up at 4.30am. Not much better last night, we left all the doors to the outside open all night (couldn't do that in town) but still not much sleep so I'm bug-eyed this morning and in fact look rather like the upper part of those stunning little Calceolaria uniflora flowers. Next door's cat came inside while our dog snoozed.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: johnw on January 25, 2009, 02:45:42 AM
still not much sleep so I'm bug-eyed this morning and in fact look rather like the upper part of those stunning little Calceolaria uniflora flowers. Next door's cat came inside while our dog snoozed.

Hilarious Lesley.

I always imagine Popeye when I see that one but he didn't have aphids.

johnw.


Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Otto Fauser on January 28, 2009, 02:40:43 AM
Lesley,
 here in Melbourne also 41C plus every day until sunday , and not a drop of rain since
Christmas , plus severe water restrictions , the hottest 5 days in a row since 1910 .
So I and the plants are languishing , who will give up the ghost first : my alpine plants
 or I ? and pity the tennis players .
 I picked one stem of Lil. chalcedonicum with 3 flowers nearly 2 weeks ago for our
 local Lily Show - they are still in reasonable condition today .
 Thank you for the seeds , which arrived yesterday.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 28, 2009, 03:39:31 AM
That's really tough Otto, especially the lack of any rain. If it's a matter of giving that glass of water to the Rhodothamnus or having it yourself......not a decision I'd like to have to make. :) I don't pity the tennis players at all, or the cricketers. They choose to play those games just as we choose to garden. If you can't stand the heat...... 8)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: maggiepie on January 29, 2009, 06:47:45 PM
Not sure if this is the right place to ask , but I have some martagon seeds in a baggie with damp vermiculite at room temperature, they've been in the bag since 8th Jan and are getting roots.
Not sure if I have to leave them at warm for another 9 weeks or if I can move them into the fridge for 3 months.
Any advice appreciated.

 :)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Martin Baxendale on January 29, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Not sure if this is the right place to ask , but I have some martagon seeds in a baggie with damp vermiculite at room temperature, they've been in the bag since 8th Jan and are getting roots.
Not sure if I have to leave them at warm for another 9 weeks or if I can move them into the fridge for 3 months.
Any advice appreciated.

 :)

You need to keep them warm until tiny bulbils have formed, then into the fridge for a few weeks cold before potting to induce leaf growth. I have martagon cattaniae seed in bags still in the warm now, put into the moist vermiculite in about November. They've made bulbs and will go in the fridge soon. If yours were sown this month, they'll probably need until maybe end of Feb to make little bulbils before going in the fridge (but keep an neye on them, as they may catch up fast on my earlier sowing).
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: maggiepie on January 29, 2009, 08:48:18 PM


You need to keep them warm until tiny bulbils have formed, then into the fridge for a few weeks cold before potting to induce leaf growth. I have martagon cattaniae seed in bags still in the warm now, put into the moist vermiculite in about November. They've made bulbs and will go in the fridge soon. If yours were sown this month, they'll probably need until maybe end of Feb to make little bulbils before going in the fridge (but keep an neye on them, as they may catch up fast on my earlier sowing).

Thanks Martin, I had it back to front  ::)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: maggiepie on February 01, 2009, 06:01:34 PM
Hope someone sees this.

Are these bulbils big enough to now go into the fridge?
I don't have a clue. ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Martin Baxendale on February 01, 2009, 09:28:03 PM
Hope someone sees this.

Are these bulbils big enough to now go into the fridge?
I don't have a clue. ??? ??? ???


I've checked mine which were sown in late Autumn and the bulbils are only a little bigger than yours, so I'd say you could put them in the fridge now if you want to, or another week just to let them add a little more bulk if they can wouldn't hurt. Either way, they've caught up fast with my autum n sown martagon seed and  are more or less ready for the fridge.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: maggiepie on February 01, 2009, 10:15:15 PM


I've checked mine which were sown in late Autumn and the bulbils are only a little bigger than yours, so I'd say you could put them in the fridge now if you want to, or another week just to let them add a little more bulk if they can wouldn't hurt. Either way, they've caught up fast with my autum n sown martagon seed and  are more or less ready for the fridge.

Martin, thanks very much for your help, I really appreciate it.:)
I'll give them another week, that will make a month of warm.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on February 02, 2009, 09:55:19 AM
I agree with Martin. they still look smallish - I would keep them one or two weeks. However, they would probably survive even now.
I would think that an indication is whether the seed looks exhausted or not.
Göte
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: maggiepie on February 02, 2009, 12:17:59 PM
I agree with Martin. they still look smallish - I would keep them one or two weeks. However, they would probably survive even now.
I would think that an indication is whether the seed looks exhausted or not.
Göte

Göte, not sure what you mean by whether the seed looks exhausted.
How can you tell? ???
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Martin Baxendale on February 02, 2009, 12:45:59 PM

Göte, not sure what you mean by whether the seed looks exhausted.
How can you tell? ???


I think Göte means the seed, instead of being plump and still containing living white seed material, looking thin and papery, nothing but a husk, meaning that all the 'goodness' has gone out of the seed into the developing bulbil and root, with nothing left to give to the bulbil. I think an extra week, or even two as he suggests, would be a good idea before putting the seed in the fridge.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: maggiepie on February 02, 2009, 01:22:25 PM
Thanks Martin, now I get it.
The seeds still look quite plump.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on February 02, 2009, 03:07:57 PM
That was exactly what I meant.
Thank you!
Göte
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Kristl Walek on March 22, 2009, 02:34:03 PM
Cris, L. philadelphicum is very difficult.  Seed germination is unpredictable and irregular, and the plants grow very slowly and have low survival rates.  It is very strange, because in nature they grow in a wide range of conditions. 

Hi Gene,
Just getting around to this thread....My own experience with L. philadelphicum germination is just the opposite of yours. My seed is wild collected in this area of Ontario. Germination is normally immediate and extremely regular and seedlings grow on trouble-free. This pattern has never varied in the 18 years I've collected and tested this species. The trouble with it to my eyes is never in the pot, but in the garden (where they rarely stay for more than 3 years) even if given what appear to be ideal conditions.

I wonder if your experience (being in Oregon) is with the western variety (L. philadelphicum var. andinum) which might very well have a different germination habit. I carried this once, but can't lay my hands on my germination records right now.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Kristl Walek on March 22, 2009, 03:04:33 PM
If I am doing pot-sowing of hypogeal lilies (instead of zip lock baggie or some other method), I usually delay my sowing until spring/early summer, when I can use the natural rhythm of the seasons to do the work for me (seed will germinate, produce bulb, etc during the warmth of the spring/summer/fall) when you see absolutely nothing above the soil level; then the pot gets plunged outside for the winter (cold treatment). The following spring the pots are normally overflowing with first leaves.

I first started this routine when producing large amount of canadense, martagons, etc. for nursery sales as I found that losses were much lower using this technique for the hypogeals.

Immediate germinators were always done indoors over winter, because the faster they come along, the better.

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Regelian on May 12, 2009, 12:42:56 PM
I had recently read an article on raising delayed hypogeal seedlings.  The writer has germinated the seed as usual and then, instead of refrigerating them, he placed them on a layer of sphagnum and gave them light and lots of water.  They grew away through the Summer and were them allowed to go dormant.  Apparently he managed to save an entire season with this method.  I am going to try it with some L. superbum seed that is currently plumping-up, but on perlite, as sphagnum is a protected species in Germany.  You may not collect it.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on May 12, 2009, 05:46:02 PM
I had recently read an article on raising delayed hypogeal seedlings.  The writer has germinated the seed as usual and then, instead of refrigerating them, he placed them on a layer of sphagnum and gave them light and lots of water.  They grew away through the Summer and were them allowed to go dormant.  Apparently he managed to save an entire season with this method.  I am going to try it with some L. superbum seed that is currently plumping-up, but on perlite, as sphagnum is a protected species in Germany.  You may not collect it.

Some more detail would be interesting. What species and what is "as usual"?
Göte
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Regelian on May 12, 2009, 06:19:35 PM
Göte,

the seed was germinated warm and moist in a plastic bag, about 8-12 weeks.  He was working with various hybrids, which represented an across the board sample of delayed hypogeal germinators; martagons, orientals, etc.  None were species.

As the bulblets reached a handlable size, they were placed on a mat of sphagnum with water to keep it wet, not just moist, and then exposed to good light.  Apparently, the little bulbs developed chlorophyll and started growing, instead of the expected cold rest.  The first true leaf came along within 5 months.

As I mentioned, I will try with perlite, which he noted was also possible, although a wool-type matting didn't work well.  As sphagnum does have certain antiseptic properties, it would certainly have advantages, if one can procure it.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on May 12, 2009, 09:50:18 PM
Are you not able to buy imported spaghnum Jamie? Spaghnum is protected here too tho' a small group of west coasters (South Island) are permitted to take a certain amount each year from a particular area where it grows very fast and regenerates annually. This is dried and exported to many countries for hort purposes. We can buy it dried in small bags and I am lucky to have a little bit growing under my shelter trees, enough for the Pleione pots and my few little Pinguiculas and a few other things.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Regelian on May 12, 2009, 10:11:04 PM
Lesley,

one would think so, but I've never seen it offered in Germany.  There are other mosses that grow here, which may be usable, but I am wary of using anything collected, other than from my own garden.  Perlite is not easy to find, as well, as the typical stuff offered is contaminated with fire retardant, but keeping ones eyes open (or a trip over to Britain) solves the problem.  I've learned to find substitutes for just about everything over the years.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on May 13, 2009, 09:34:07 AM

Jamie,
Some orchid growers sell Spaghnum.
I also had trouble finding it, but Wubben Orchids in Holland (North of Utrecht) sells some on a regular basis.

http://www.orchidwubben.com/

 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: bendgardener on October 15, 2011, 02:05:22 AM
I live in the Central Oregon Cascades and just collected 12 seed pods form L. washingtonianum, from a neighbors property.   Any advice on when and how to properly sow the seed?  Also does is normally germinate in one season or should I expect germination over several seasons? 

Thanks

Bob
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Tony Willis on October 15, 2011, 07:15:20 PM
Fox's 'Growing Lilies' says it has hypogeal germination,germinating in late autumn in cool conditions and so I think it should be sown straightaway and expect to see growth above ground in the spring. I would not let the pots be frozen hard.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on October 22, 2011, 11:50:51 AM
Western Lilies have a similar two stage germination cycle as the eastern and the martagons. They differ, however, in that the first low temperature period should be around 10 degrees C rather than 4 C.
Göte   
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on October 22, 2011, 12:00:27 PM
Re Sphagnum,
The situation is very different in different countries.
Our worst rodent that makes most damage in gardens in Sweden is protected in the UK.
Reed (Phragmites) is an obnoxious weed here - and protected in Germany.
Heracleum is considered a dangerous weed - I tried it once and it died the second winter.
We have any amount of sphagnum growing wild here and to protect it would be as useful as protecting the pines and firs in our forests. Even more is available east of the Baltic. If there is a true demand for the stuff it should be easy for someone to start exporting.
Cheers
Göte
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on December 09, 2011, 07:31:20 PM
Bendgardener, see the attached file for germinating NW native lilies.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on December 12, 2011, 08:33:21 AM
An excellent description Gene. Thank you very much.
I agree absolutely that it is preferably not to transplant the "microbulbs". 
Many of us receive our seed from seed exchanges which means that we have them in February.
I assume that the period at 40-45°F is the chilling period after bulb formation. That can easily take place in the fridge (If other family members allow)
However the previous bulb formation period is difficult to achieve outside when the temperature is at subzero degrees (as is the case in February my place).
I have seen three months at 50°F recommended. What is your idea about that?
Does your warning against lower temperatures than 28°F apply also to the mature plant? If so it would explain my poor results with the western species.
Cheers
Göte


 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on December 22, 2011, 08:18:33 PM
Gote, I don't know the exact requirements for the cool temperature treatment.  I would give the seeds at least one month at roughly 60F.  Maybe 3 months at 50F would also work; I don't know.  If they don't come up the first spring, leave them in the pots, and don't let them dry out.  They will probably come up the second spring after sowing.

I don't usually sow seed from the exchange right away.  I store it in the freezer and wait for the right time to sow it the next fall.

Cold hardiness of western species:  I have heard that western US species don't do well in cold climates.  But I have no direct experience.  Maybe you should ask about this on the Yahoo Lilium group.  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lilium/
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ChrisB on June 17, 2012, 05:33:42 PM
I'm so pleased, I grew this L. mackliniae hybrid from seed sown in 2008.  It has flowered for the first time this year.  Two shots of it from different angles.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Pilling on June 17, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
very nice Chris. I have tried L. Mc. a few times and failed...
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on June 18, 2012, 04:04:54 PM
Really goodlooking Chris!
I hope my seedlings from darker varities will be as good.
The winter was bad here and I lost my maclinaes which have flowered every year since 2006.  :'(
A couple of seedlings which were growing in a different place seems to have survived.  :)
I also lost my formosanum which I got by mistake but which flowered since 2008.
Cheers
Göte
 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ChrisB on June 19, 2012, 11:15:50 AM
Gote - if my L. formosanum flowers again this year (it has done for the past 6-8 yrs) I could save you some seed if you like.  Its a very strong plant and has a good sized flower.  I got my L. mackliniae seed from the exchange in 2008.  The others in the pot have yet to flower, perhaps next year, then I'll know if they are uniform...
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ichristie on June 21, 2012, 04:27:10 PM
Hello Chris, your Lilium mackliniae is probably the dark form collected by Peter Cox and is now named Naga Pink really nice, cheers Ian the Christie kind.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ChrisB on June 21, 2012, 08:02:34 PM
Thanks Ian.  Grown from seed and the packet did say L. m. hybrid.... I've never flowered a lily grown from seed before, its such a thrill....
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ronm on June 21, 2012, 08:07:25 PM
A beautiful plant to start with Chris, :o. Congratulations on your first, ;D 8) 8)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Liz Mills on June 25, 2012, 09:37:49 PM
Well done, Chris - hope this will inspire you to grow lots more lilies from seed - then you don't need to worry about lily beetle.  Club Seed Exchange is a great source for good seed especially of the species.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on July 02, 2012, 11:33:49 AM
Gote - if my L. formosanum flowers again this year (it has done for the past 6-8 yrs) I could save you some seed if you like.  Its a very strong plant and has a good sized flower.  I got my L. mackliniae seed from the exchange in 2008.  The others in the pot have yet to flower, perhaps next year, then I'll know if they are uniform...
Thank you very much Chris.
To my plesant surprise it did come up. Very late. No flower bud but healthy looking. Never the less, I would appreciate some seeds. Presently I have only one egg in the basket  ;D and a strong grower is always welcome.
Göte Svanholm
Oskarsparken 6
70212 Örebro
Sweden.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ChrisB on July 02, 2012, 12:59:33 PM
After I'd written that, went to see what it is doing this year.  Its come up, like yours, but no sign of flower bud yet, and there should be.   I'll keep a watch on it for  you.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on October 11, 2012, 04:32:30 AM
Hello, I was fortunate this year to obtain seed of Lilium majoense and Lilium poilanei. Does anyone know the optimum temperature for germination for these rare species?Also any guide lines for successful growth to flowering would be appreciated.
Seed was planted on 13/7/12 in an unheated shed, with minimum winter temperatures down to +2c. We are into spring with day temp from +11c to +20c.
Regards
Paul R
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Tony Willis on October 11, 2012, 01:19:55 PM
I have not been fortunate enough to obtain Lilium majoense yet but last year obtained two clones of L. poilanei which produced seed  so I will deal with that from my experience.

The seed ripened last year about late September .

In March this year I sowed the seeds individually on a layer of sand over the compost of John Innes with extra grit in an upright position about two cms down the pot,  covered them with compost and topped with grit.I kept them in a frost free frame ( 5c min). They germinated in late June and have much to my surprise not only produced their seed leaf but each has now gone on to make a further leaf (picture below)

I am going to pot the whole lot on in the next few days and try and keep them growing as long as possible in a frost free environment.

Both the parent bulbs have flowered again this year but much later and I now have four pods on one of them which will not ripen for another two/three months which is going to prove difficult  as we are now entering winter.

I have found that they also propagate easily from scales.

Ignore the marks on the leaves as this is Provado residue.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on October 12, 2012, 01:24:34 PM
Thanks Tony for your experience.The pot of your L poilanei sure looks promising . I decided I would move my yet to germinate pots to the regular warmth of an orchid house, put them in a plastic bag and place on the floor.All my other asiatic lilium seed has germinated, but not these 2 rare species.
 Hope you manage to harvest those yet to ripen poilanei pods. Maybe once you have several clones established, you can grow some stock for breeding in decent size pots and bring them under shelter for pod ripening in the future.
All my seed, btw, is planted in a sterilized layer of soil and at about the same depth at yours.Some of my seed I presoak for a few days, then plant, but not these two lots.Now I wish I had done half and half!
Regards
Paul R






















Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Tasmanian Taffy on October 13, 2012, 02:22:45 AM
Hi Paul,
I have some Lilium Poilanei which I sowed about a fortnight ago I was kindly given the seed by Tony in the U.K.From what I have been able to find out about this particular species is that the seed is immediate epigeal germination which needs to be sown in the early spring as I live in Tasmania and our climate is very much the same as yours.I sow all my Lilium seed in my own seed raising mix in 135mm square pots.I sow each seed ( about nine or twelve to a pot) using a pair of tweezers gently placing them vertically in the mix and covering them with a fine layer of mix then a thin layer of fine gravel,I then give them a good water and place the pots in my shade house and leave them there until they are big enough to transplant out.I find I have a better success rate than using the plastic bag and vermiculite method.I tried to get some Poilanei bulbs sent from China but Quarantine regulations won't allow it.I am waiting now to see if my Poilanei seed germinate.I would like to know how your Majoense seed goes as I have been trying four about five years to get some seed of this species.Best regards John Bartush.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Tasmanian Taffy on October 13, 2012, 02:32:39 AM
Hello Tony,
Your Poilanei seedlings are looking very healthy,I sowed the seeds that you kindly sent me about two weeks ago at the start of our Spring here.Keeping my fingers crossed that they germinate and grow as well as yours,will keep you posted.Best regards John. :) :) :)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on October 14, 2012, 11:55:53 AM
G'day John.
I haven't had any problems with germinating any other seed, except in the early days with the first ryirubes and some other primary OT crosses.Old seed, or seed incorrectly stored, will also cut down germination rates.My majoensis and poilanei seed was relatively fresh.I would not recommend using the baggy method for immediate epigeal germinating seed.

I lived in Tasmania for 10 years, leaving about 4 years ago. My setup there was pretty good, large double-span igloo and plenty of good water from a creek fed dam.There was no problem with soil mixes there, as I used to buy a trailer load of sterilized mix from the local professional flower grower. So easy.When I moved, I lost quite a few choice species and clones and I have had another move, 18 months ago, back to a country property, close to the ocean, with a small acreage that I can handle.I'm building up my martagon collection again,including species of course and have perhaps 1000 + seedlings coming along.Orientals, in all forms, along with OT's, Trumpets and both asiatic species and hybrids interest me.Last year I sent some good Japonicum seed to the SRGC, The pod parent was Marcus' original pink clone and the pollen was from a white clone that  a chap (dec) from Victoria sent to me in Tassie.I brought that pollen with me.Since then, I obtained another 2 japonicum clones from Marcus, one is paler pink, almost white.Last year I flowered some nice  Le Reve pollinated with both white and pink japonicum and will have further seedlings from that cross blooming this year.I still have trouble with duchartrei and can't set seed on my wardii. Lankonguense is easy and quite beautiful.

I was thrilled to get these two rare species seed this year and wish you all the luck with your poilanei seed, John. Are you north or south in Tasmania?
Just as a side note, I also breed tuberous begonias, carnations (English borders) and pinks (hybrids) and perhaps fuchsia hybrids and species, not to mention daffodils.

Regards
Paul R
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on October 15, 2012, 01:22:51 AM
Quote
can't set seed on my wardii

Paul,

Marcus seems to sell a single clone which doesn't (of course) self-fertilise, but I've only had moderate success with pollen from another clone sent me by Adrian Van Kamp. It left me wondering whether there was any in-breeding depression.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on October 16, 2012, 12:22:59 PM
Hi Rob
not sure about any in-breeding depression.I presume your new clone from Adrian van Kampen was from a recent import from The Netherlands? Perhaps if you have had it only a season, the stars weren't aligned that time.My clones were from Rod and Marcus and may very well have been one and the same.Last year I bought another clone of wardii from Brian Tonkin Bulbs and was pretty sure Shirley confirmed it was seed raised, but alas, I still failed to get a seed set, but am hopeful.I may also have used another clone from Brian Tonkin when I was in Tassie?

Today I checked the last seven years NALS seed list. Only two donors sent wardii seed in that period and both are from Tasmania, RB in 2008 and NJ in 2011 and 2012. So I rang NJ and he confirmed that his wardii parents were seed raised by him and that he ensures he selects  seedlings for breeding that show some variation.I think he is putting together an article on wardii for the RHS journal. He pollinates his wardii in the open.

I obtained wardii seed from NALS, but with the recent huge move to this property, the seedlings were lost.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on October 16, 2012, 08:32:10 PM
I had seed this year on what I have grown for some years as wardii and I promised this to Rob but then mislaid it. I have a nasty feeling I may have sown it as a Fritillaria species with a ? on the label.

Mine was seed from a NZ gardener from Central Otago and has flowered well most years but set seed only a couple of times. It urgently needs unpotting and planting in a the garden. It should be able to get this fairly soon as we move from this garden to a quite different one.

The picture below is what I have as wardii and I wonder if, in fact it is that or one of the other pinks. Some opinions please? Sorry that it's rather furry, not a good picture and I have none of the stem or foliage.

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: pontus on October 16, 2012, 08:50:02 PM
Hello Leslie,

what you have is in fact lilium lankongense, from China(and in fact an excellent colour form of it) , and not lilium wardii. Wardii is light-dark pink on the whole flower, with brown spots. i will find an old wardi picture to show you if you want. I find wardii very difficult to grow, while lankongense is easier...

Pontus
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: pontus on October 16, 2012, 08:54:18 PM
here is the true wardii, photographed in 2007 in my friend Tim Whiteley's garden in evenley, northamptonshire., who grows this sp to perfection, easilly getting 20-30 flowers on a few exceptional specimens...it really is a beauty of the lily world!

Pontus
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: rob krejzl on October 16, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
Paul,

This was from several years ago, before I fell ill. I didn't get the bulb, just pollen - with very uneven seed-set. Lots of chaff in poorly filled pods. The seeds were viable though, so I hope the person who wanted them was satisfied. My own seedlings I lost because I wasn't able to care for them properly - the garden itself is still recovering from years of almost total neglect and weeding has become my full-time vocation.

I did once see a very interesting plant up at Sally J's that looked to have flowers with characters of both wardii and duchartrei. Not seen it again to confirm my impressions.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on October 16, 2012, 10:04:18 PM
Thank you Pontus, for that lovely picture. So it seems I've been nursing a snake in my bosom all along! Such is life. Rob, at least it means that the seed I haven't sent to you is not what you wanted anyway. So sorry about that but I'm glad to have it cleared up at last.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: gote on October 17, 2012, 09:53:40 AM
Lesley,
A quite unusual form of Lankongense or whatever. My lankongense are uniformly pink.
Lesley and Pontus,
I think that it is necessary to look at the whole plant - especially since this group of lilies is not well described in literature that is available to readers who are not sufficiently fluent in Chinese. The picture of L. wardii in flora of China shows fairly broad leaves. My lankongense/duchartreii have considerably more nnarrow leaves. they also send the stem a coupe of decimeters sideways from the bulb before they emerge.
All,
There are many things to consider when determining  a lily species. The shape of the infloresence is important. umbel or raceme. (Yes I know this is diffcult in a plant that has only one flower) A Lilium has always two bracts to the pedicel (not obvious if only one flower) but lilies that sometimes have branched pedicels sometimes have the second bract sitting halfway up on the pedicel. (Like lancifolium and speciosum). An umbellate lilium like dauricum or bulbiferum has the bracts in a whorl at the bottom of the umbel. Some lilies like the martagon group and the Americans have most leaves in whorl(-s). Some have very distinctive bulbs - especially Americans but also others are distinctive like lopophorum which is very narrow. Some have articulated bulb scales. some (henryii, rosthornii) have two distinctly different types of leaves on the stem. The shape of the nectary may also be distincive.
We have the problem that type specimen usually are from the wild and may be different from the same plant grown in a garden. The number of flowers is usually misleading if it is 1-3. A garden grown specimen may have many more.
 
PLEASE take pictures of the whole plant!!

May all our slugs die in the winter
Göte

       
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Lesley Cox on October 18, 2012, 09:38:29 PM
My group of perhaps a dozen - in a large pot but hopefully to be planted out when properly dormant by which time we will have moved - are from seed and there is a lot of variation.. Four flowered last summer and only one had that green, the others all either pink or pink and white with various spotting. Because they've only lived in the pot their stature has not been true but this should improve as they become garden orientated.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on November 12, 2012, 01:12:29 AM
Update to my post on Oct 11th  regarding L. poilanei, majoensis and and later postings re wardii.

I am extremely happy to report
majoensis 7 seedlings so far and the same number of poilanei have germinated.

I was then sent some wardii seed from a very generous guy (my wardii plants had never produced seed, ever, so I thought I may have only one clone sourced from different people in Australia).
12 wardii seeds have now germinated.
I may have even done  a little gig :D
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Maggi Young on November 25, 2012, 09:02:07 PM
For western US species germination, take a look at this article :

For species lilies in general, I'll post something tonight when I get home from work.  But I will tell you this:  germination may take a long time, but it's the easy part.  The hard part is keeping the plants alive through hot summer weather.  If the bulbs get too warm, they rot.  This does not apply to modern hybrids, which are bulletproof.  By the way, there are lots of other plants that have complex germination requirements, such as Peony and Corydalis for example.  But none of them are as hard to keep alive as species lilies, in my opinion.

Edit: broken links removed and Western Species Germination notes added.


Gene Mirro has kindly send  files to replace the broken links which resulted from an arlier crash in his former website. I add them here. There is also  a larger file on the germination of western species, which I will try to reduce to enable it to be posted here.

Please note also Gene's lily articles in the International Rock Gardener: issues 31, 32 and 33 ..
see here : http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=international (http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=international)

Edited to add IRG issue numbers and link  :)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Maggi Young on November 25, 2012, 09:29:04 PM
Here is Gene's fuller article on Western Lily germination, divided into 7 sections to allow for posting here....

[attachurl=1]

[attachurl=2]

[attachurl=3]

[attachurl=4]

[attachurl=5]

[attachurl=6]

[attachurl=7]
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on November 26, 2012, 03:42:29 PM
Here is another document that I referred to on my now-defunct website:

[attachthumb = 1]

This is an excerpt from an English gardening book written in 1916 by A. Clutton-Brock.  He has a lot of interesting insights.  Some of the lily species names are no longer valid.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: ebbie on July 03, 2013, 06:57:30 PM
Lilium bolanderi

Seeds from ALPLAINS. In zip bag in moist perlite.
-3 months at about 20 ° C
-3 months in the refrigerator at about 10 ° C.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on December 05, 2013, 06:00:49 AM
Two pots containing seedlings of L.majoense and L. poilanei continued to grow throughout winter.I found a green aphid on the majoense this morning--certainly got me moving, burnt my porridge too. ;D

Regards
Paul R
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Argentea on February 24, 2014, 08:28:59 PM
Thanks , everybody for your input on Lilium seed germination.    In general, I have pretty good success with germinations.   However, in my experience, many times I receive seed in Feb/ March. In delayed hypogeal   techniques, I do give a 3-4 week warm period, but unfortunately, becomes difficult for me in my climate to follow up with a cold period, as our weather has warmed up to the point they don't receive a proper chill.  I've had minimal success with refrigeration for the cool period.  It just seems the fluctuating cool/ cold temps of winter have a better effect than constant refrigerator cooling.    And, of course, we now have the additional equation of liquid smoke in germination aid.    Any thoughts out there? Gene, I'm in your state. 
Also, I'm treading new territory by sowing several Chinese species, some of which I can find no info.
Rick Kyper
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on June 01, 2014, 01:29:40 AM
Rick K, I just discovered your post.  For delayed hypogeal seeds, it usually takes at least 3-4 months of warm (25C), followed by at least 4 months of cold (5C).  If you tell me what Chinese species you are trying to grow, maybe I can give you some hints.  Most of the Chinese species are immediate epigeal, but the rare ones can be very difficult to grow to maturity.

I do not recommend trying to germinate lily seeds out of their natural season.  It is extremely difficult to get them synchronized with the weather outdoors, and you will end up losing a lot of them.  I start delayed hypogeal in early Summer, and immediate epigeal in late Winter.  I want them to germinate in Spring.  If you get the seeds at the wrong time of year, just store them in the freezer in an airtight container.  Don't forget to label them.  I used to grow some lilies on an inverted schedule (in the Winter under lights) but it is too much trouble.

If you are in the Kalama area, I will be happy to give you a tour.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: johnw on June 01, 2014, 02:28:59 PM
Gene  - Last year Bjřrnar's Lilium souliei seed sprouted immediately at room temp in a plastic bag.  Within a few weeks they promptly collapsed at 5c in the cool fluorescent room. I blamed a spray of bacterial fungicide which coincidentally also knocked out another rare gemlet.

This year no seeds sprouted.

Has anyone had success with this devil of a species?

johnw
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Yann on June 02, 2014, 08:33:27 PM
John, i sown the ones received from Bojnar in february, they germinated mid-april and they now are 3cm/1.5" .
I put the seeds in a mix of peat, perlite, water retentor and cover them with 1cm of vermiculite.
Last week i spray a bit too much water on the pot but i placed it immediatly in very ventilated area of the greenhouse.

On last inspection all seems to be safe. :P

I'm no more using bag's method for germinating lilium. It goes well directly in pot, especially for chinese species.
I don't use any fongicid on my seedlings.

The only thing i've remarked : Lilium should have a built-in timing that triggers germination. And it should happens during spring (mid-march to end of april). If the germination doesn't occur during this time lapse result is quite poor.
Temperature's delta during this period can be important, lighting began to change and i guess those paramaters have an effect on germination.

I now sow Lilium for +/- 15 years and the surviving bulbs ,and so seedlings, were those respecting the "spring period".


It's my experiences and i know some persons who're not able to germinate any lilium's seeds in pot (bad substrat is also a reason of failure) but succeed using pure vermiculite in bag.
 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on June 02, 2014, 08:51:25 PM
I agree with Yann on all points.

I grow all of my new seedlings under fluorescents at around 15C for a couple of months in late Winter.  I don't get any damping off losses.  If I put the new seedlings in the greenhouse, and if the weather is cloudy for a week or two, sometimes I get big losses.  I don't use fungicide on new seedlings.  I have had problems with fungicide.

I don't like the bag method.  Too much work.  I don't want to touch the new seedlings.

Johnw, I have not tried Bjornar's seeds yet.  I will try them next Spring. 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Yann on June 02, 2014, 09:13:35 PM
i've almost 100% of germination with Bojnar's seeds. Fresh material
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: johnw on June 02, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
I only used the bags to sprout the seeds, the minute they came up they were de-bagged and moved into the cool 5-10c room under fluorescents.  The transition always goes easily.  The fungicide was a bacillus ....   I suspect it may have fermented.

I will not give up hope on the souliei seed from 2014. So am I correct to assume they germinate immediately at room temps?

Thanks to all.

johnw
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on June 02, 2014, 09:44:40 PM
Seeds of Nomocharis and Chinese alpine species are supposed to be immediate epigeal.  But many of them have delayed germination, often a year or more.  So you should not throw away your pots, and you should keep them moist.  In my experience, the ones that are delayed do not grow as well as the ones that germinate right away.  But I grow them anyway. 

I usually plant the entire contents of the pot into the garden in mid-May, without disturbing the seedlings.  I often find new seedlings coming up in the garden in the following year or two.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: vanozzi on September 10, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
Whoo hoo !!
 8 speciosum gloriosoides and 4 Lophophorum seeds have germinated in the last 2 days.Especially happy to see the gloriosoides .

Thank you Bjřrnar Olsen.
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Gene Mirro on December 22, 2014, 12:36:02 AM
I usually get poor germination of L. mackliniae, oxypetalum and nanum when I try to germinate them indoors at around 15C.  This year I am germinating them outdoors at 5-10C, and they are germinating strongly.  As soon as they make a leaf, they go under the fluorescent lights in my cold greenhouse.  I am also trying some Nomocharis in winter temps, but they haven't started germinating yet.  Next I am going to try some of the other Chinese high-altitude lilies at low temps.  I've seen several references on the web stating that these seeds like to germinate at low temps (5-15C). 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: P. Kohn on September 14, 2015, 05:35:57 PM
We too enjoy raising species lilies from seed and generally don't find them too difficult once one has identified whether they are epigeal or hypogeal etc. but bulb scaling is definitely the method of choice for getting mature plants quickly. However, there seem to be a very limited number of species available as bulbs in the UK. Can anyone suggest good suppliers please ? How difficult (and expensive) is it to import from other countries ?
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Maggi Young on September 14, 2015, 06:44:40 PM
As it happens, Peter - Pontus has just posted a list of plants....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13571.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=13571.0)

 8)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Nicholson on September 14, 2015, 07:00:52 PM
Susan Band at Pitcairn Alpines lists the following Lilium
columbianum; humboldtii; kelleyanum; kelloggii; lankongense; macklinae; pardalinum; parryii; rosthornii; taliense; wardii. I haven't checked her current stock position.

http://www.pitcairnalpines.co.uk/enter-main-shop-here-nall8curpage-3-8-c.asp (http://www.pitcairnalpines.co.uk/enter-main-shop-here-nall8curpage-3-8-c.asp)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Tristan_He on November 24, 2015, 08:48:14 PM
It's funny that the technical terms epigeal and hypogeal always come up in any discussion of lily seed germination, as it gives growing them from seed a mystique they do not deserve.

Like Gene, I've grown a lot of lilies from seed and killed far more along the way. In my view germination is generally the easy part provided that the seed is reasonably fresh (I tend to sow as soon as they are ripe). Moreover, the 'sow, cover with grit, leave outside and await results' approach seems to work pretty well for most species. The trick is then in regular potting up whilst not disturbing the roots, and guarding against slugs and vine weevils. It's immensely rewarding to look at a clump of these beautiful plants in the garden and know that they are something unique that you have raised.

Fresh seed is key though - don't bother with offerings of seed companies which are mostly dead. I can recommend the RHS Lily Group http://www.rhslilygroup.org/ (http://www.rhslilygroup.org/) seed exchange (Declaration of interest: I used to help run it for a while).

Tristan
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Susan Band on December 01, 2015, 08:53:17 AM
Just looked at my bags of Lilium canadense and michiaganense seed bought from Gabriela 4 weeks ago.  They have been kept in the living room(about 19-20C) they are now forming little bulbs. I will keep them in the house for another week to let them grow a bit. I will then sow them in seed trays and put them in the just frost free tunnel. I hope they will put up a leaf this spring. 
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Maggi Young on December 01, 2015, 01:06:57 PM
Just looked at my bags of Lilium canadense and michiaganense seed bought from Gabriela 4 weeks ago.  They have been kept in the living room(about 19-20C) they are now forming little bulbs. I will keep them in the house for another week to let them grow a bit. I will then sow them in seed trays and put them in the just frost free tunnel. I hope they will put up a leaf this spring. 
   Gabriela  =  Botanically Inclined (http://botanicallyinclined.org/seeds-shop/)    8)
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Cfred72 on October 03, 2016, 07:41:16 PM
What do you advise to plant Lilium nepalense?
I will soon reap the seeds of the single pod garden.
Is epigeal (immediate, delayed) or Hypogeum (immediate or delayed)?
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: David Nicholson on October 03, 2016, 08:36:40 PM
Immediate epigeal.

Just noticed in 'Lilies' by Edward Austin McRae "Coming from the Himalayan foothills it might be suspected to lack hardiness; however, it has survived outdoors in Oregon for many years......... The species can be grown in a pot or other container given plenty of moisture during its growing period, but it must be kept dry during fall and winter. It is necessary to cover it against fall rains"
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Cfred72 on October 04, 2016, 04:35:26 AM
David thank you for information.
I had planted last year in a new very light and very draining bed ..
I did not take special precautions to protect it. He appeared 50 centimeters further than where I had planted. True, he is known for.
For seeds I sow the pot in surface with 0.5 cm of grains above and then I lay in bed directly outside waiting for spring?
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Véronique Macrelle on October 05, 2018, 06:52:41 AM
I am still a beginner in seedlings. I had success until the flower only with Lilium formosanum until the flower.
What do I do with these tiny bulbils (2 to 3 mm) of Lilium castebaei to keep them alive this winter?
wet or very wet?
I cover them with gravel so that they do not dry out?
they are in the peat, and their leaves begin to turn yellow.

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: pontus on January 24, 2019, 12:39:40 AM
i would suggest moist for the catesbaei but not soaked either, as that will just make them rot.

try to provide good light as well.

the only issue if you top dress with gravel is that you will not be able to see how dry or how moist the soil is so it will be tricky to know when to water...
Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Véronique Macrelle on January 24, 2019, 04:36:27 AM
thank you, I grope ...:
 the dormancy was very late, and I had covered them to avoid the drying of the peat, but already now for 1 month a small leaf reappears on 4 of them (unless it is new germination?) but it is very dark and it freezes (- 4 °).

it seems to me that another seed species is also sown while it freezes every night in the greenhouse: Lilium bolanderi. if it works, it would be the first time for me that I succeeded correctly in a hypogeal germination;

I did not think that the lilies germinated while it was so cold.

Title: Re: Lilium species
Post by: Rick R. on January 24, 2019, 11:21:01 PM
The Lilium genus is very diverse, and indeed there are species that can (also) germinate at 2-4C.  Often, these are ones said to germinate at 10-14C, like L. pyrenaicum, pomponium, possibly the Balkan species.  Perhaps it is the variation in the individual species themselves, perhaps it involves certain other developments in the embryos.  With L. pomponium, for instance, I have found different batches of seed (from different sources) germinate best at, say, 12C, and some best at 2-4C.  With some seeds, and I do not doubt that this might include some Lilium, germination will take place at most any temperature, say 2-25C.  Prior exposure to a warm cycle, or even a week or two in moist warm conditions, can also affect cool or cold temperature germination.