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Author Topic: delosperma & aizoaceae  (Read 43187 times)

Sinchets

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2009, 10:07:23 AM »
Yes, Cohan my Aloinopsis spathulata are still alive and slowly getting bigger. They have been to -15C with no snow, and survived a rime of frost form freezing rain. I think summer here was too dry for them but they seemed to improve after the autumn rains started (in November). Hopefully more flowers this coming year.
Simon
Balkan Rare Plant Nursery
Stara Planina, Bulgaria. Altitude 482m.
Lowest winter (shade) temp -25C.
Highest summer (shade) temp 35C.

iann

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2009, 11:00:56 AM »
Aloinopsis spathulata is found near Sutherland, one of the coldest parts of South Africa.  It should be hardy to well below -20C with or without snow.  It is often described as a winter grower, but that obviously isn't quite right given its habitat.  More accurately it is summer dormant with a short growing period in late winter and spring.  Aloinopsis are prone to rot off if they get much water in summer.  Left dry they will toast into hard bronzed sculptures.  Watered and the outer leaves will quickly turn to mush, followed by the roots, and then the whole plant.  I find them very difficult under glass, but growable bedded out with some protection from rain.

Other Aloinopsis vary in hardiness, but all are completely safe here in England if you can control the water they get.  They're fairly straightforward from seed.  They get touchy when they're older and get thick roots.
near Manchester,  NW England, UK

Sinchets

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2009, 11:19:18 AM »
Thanks for the extra info, Ian. Do temperatures get as low as -20C in Sutherland, South Africa? Or is there a possibility that this species has a 'memory' from times when world climates were very different?
Simon
Balkan Rare Plant Nursery
Stara Planina, Bulgaria. Altitude 482m.
Lowest winter (shade) temp -25C.
Highest summer (shade) temp 35C.

iann

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2009, 12:07:43 PM »
The town of Sutherland probably doesn't ever reach -20C.  The record low for the weather station at 1,400m is -16C.  There are large areas nearby around 1,700m and the hilltops approach 2,000m, so quite possibly this species does experience -20C in habitat.

Other species do seem to have more cold hardiness than they could possibly need in their current habitat.  For example, Lithops optica is found only within a few miles of the Atlantic coast.  Local weather stations show no frost over a period of decades, yet the plants are hardy to around -10C in ideal conditions.  Of course habitat doesn't provide ideal conditions and it may be that they need the hardiness to handle conditions of condensation and even occasional ice at around freezing.
near Manchester,  NW England, UK

Sinchets

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2009, 12:11:47 PM »
That certainly presents us with plenty of possibilities  :)
Simon
Balkan Rare Plant Nursery
Stara Planina, Bulgaria. Altitude 482m.
Lowest winter (shade) temp -25C.
Highest summer (shade) temp 35C.

cohan

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2009, 06:31:00 PM »
the overhardiness is a fascinating issue..who knows what these plants have genetic memories of? titanopsis is another i have read is quite hardy (not here, people have done it down east, but usually lose it in hard winters)..
similar situation with some of the escobarias (cacti)-esp E vivipara and missouriensis which occur into far northern u.s. and vivipara in canada--populations from much farther south still tend to be hardier than it would seem they need to...

alplains lists Aloinopsis spathulata as z4 which is down to -30- -34C..marginal here, but i may still try..
cohan
west central alberta, canada; 1000m; record temps:min -45C/-49F;max 34C/93F; http://picasaweb.google.ca/cactuscactus  http://urbanehillbillycanada.blogspot.com/

Lori S.

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2010, 01:25:47 AM »
lori and simon had both mentioned they were trying Aloinopsis (spathulata?) at the end of last winter, i dont recall whether we ever got an update?
did they survive last winter?

Sorry, I didn't see this question until now.  No, my A. spathulata didn't survive outdoors (the fleshy leaves were all dessicated, I think, and broken off), but if I have seeds left over, I'll try it again.  (There may have been one random factor that contributed to their demise... the outdoor Xmas tree stand may have been set on them, which certainly would not have helped!)
Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

cohan

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2010, 08:52:46 AM »
lori and simon had both mentioned they were trying Aloinopsis (spathulata?) at the end of last winter, i dont recall whether we ever got an update?
did they survive last winter?

Sorry, I didn't see this question until now.  No, my A. spathulata didn't survive outdoors (the fleshy leaves were all dessicated, I think, and broken off), but if I have seeds left over, I'll try it again.  (There may have been one random factor that contributed to their demise... the outdoor Xmas tree stand may have been set on them, which certainly would not have helped!)


lol, that is a wildcard factor...
 hard to really judge hardiness by one or a few plants in one location of course--not even every native plant survives..not that i advocate butting your head endlessly against the wall ;)
if i get seed, i will try a few in different spots, and keep some indoors...lol
west central alberta, canada; 1000m; record temps:min -45C/-49F;max 34C/93F; http://picasaweb.google.ca/cactuscactus  http://urbanehillbillycanada.blogspot.com/

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2010, 11:56:28 AM »
Wow, that was clunky!  I couldn't find that reference to a D. nubigenum with pink petals at SANBI and I don't think its possible to link directly into particular search results.  Possibly it was referring to the specimen as being unusual.  I'm sure a D. nubigenum with pink flowers would be a big hit in cultivation.  In any case, D. nubigenum is well documented with yellow flowers: "c. 30 bright yellow longer petals, c. 20 shorter ones, c. 10 deep yellow threadlike filamentous staminodes, around the c. 70 stamens".  Good flowering seems to depend on getting a good flush of early spring growth which is difficult in the UK.  I speculate that too much water early in the year may also suppress the flowers.

The name D. congestum is used extensively but is clearly wrong and clearly documented as wrong.  The original type is not known and the latin description has caused confusion, but clearly it never referred to D. nubigenum.  It may not refer to anything, many of the early descriptions were made from dessicated dead specimens, although Bolus tended to have better material.

Other yellow Delospermas common in cultivation, and there aren't very many, are D. echinatum and D. rogersii, both distinctive and hairy, and D. crassum which is a fairly standard sub-shrub Delosperma.  There is an unnamed tufted species from Lesotho which has almost inevitably been sold as D. congestum.  I show one in my garden, clearly different from any named species.  It is very hardy but the thickened rootstock seems a little sensitive to winter wet.  Anything else with yellow flowers is likely D. nubigenum or some hybrid of it.

Confer
http://dkg-info.de/cms/cs/index.pl?navid=Bilder_1014&id=372&sid=de
for the Latin diagnosis of Delosperma basuticum,
click Kommentare anzeigen,
and
http://www.fgas-sukkulenten.de/downloads/delosperma_d.htm
for the Latin diagnosis of Delosperma congestum.
Holotypes are available in Aluka. Bolus described the species on the basis of flowering plants grown in garden,
hence flower colours are not a fantasy.
The holotype of Delosperma congestum exists,
http://www.aluka.org/action/doPDF?q=high&type=img&doi=10.5555%2FAL.AP.SPECIMEN.BOL131287
The holotype of Delosperma nubigena and simultaneously Mesembryanthemum nubigena
http://www.aluka.org/action/doPDF?q=high&type=img&doi=10.5555%2FAL.AP.SPECIMEN.BOL131349
has surprisingly narrow leaves. Perhaps it was collected in a shady place,
the internodia are elongated too. The substantive nubigena cannot be adjectivized to nubigenum
in Latin language.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 12:07:09 PM by Great Moravian »
Josef N.
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Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »
It might be interesting to compare two images published in the thread, namely


Josef N.
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cohan

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2010, 12:11:22 AM »
It might be interesting to compare two images published in the thread, namely

both beautiful! i love the purple foliage..so which species are these?
are these young plants? or will they tend to stay as rather separate rosettes? i think maybe i see old stems connecting the separate bodies?
west central alberta, canada; 1000m; record temps:min -45C/-49F;max 34C/93F; http://picasaweb.google.ca/cactuscactus  http://urbanehillbillycanada.blogspot.com/

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2010, 11:09:07 AM »
Ian who posted the images should provide an explanation. In my guess the former are young plants of
Delosperma 'Hogan' alias Delosperma 'Sani Pass'. In nurseries usually incorrectly as
Delosperma alpinum. It is a hardy plant. The latter might be Delosperma alpinum,
but I may be wrong. Unknown to me.
I expect Ian can add something interesting.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 11:10:55 AM by Great Moravian »
Josef N.
gardening in Brno, Czechoslovakia
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Krieg, Handel und Piraterie, dreieinig sind sie, nicht zu trennen
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iann

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »
You gave the correct names.  Each is a single plant.  Both are low growing and will form a tight mat in high light and alpine conditions, more leggy in warm dull conditions.  The scale is different and the first plant is perhaps ten times the size of the second in all respects.

The first was collected as Delosperma Sani Pass which isn't very descriptive since the Sani Pass is full of Delospermas.  It is somewhat similar to D. nubigenum with red leaves and white flowers, but clearly not the same species.  It is extremely hardy and I have one still alive in the garden after -15C and being buried under snow and ice for weeks.  It greens up in summer when it grows if it gets drenched every now and then.  Probably a spring grower and summer dormant in warmer climates.  It has been distributed under a variety of names, all incorrect since it has never been named so far as I know.

The second is the very old species Ectotropis alpina, lost for decades and just rediscovered in the last ten years.  It has also been renamed as Delosperma alpinum.  The name is apt and experienced succulent growers in warmer climates have struggled with it, even declaring it short-lived.

Curiously they are both self-fertile which has led to speculation that they are somewhat closely related although they occur in isolated mountain ranges in different parts of South Africa.  This has led to the name Delosperma alpinum being applied incorrectly to the first plant.  The size difference, tuberous roots, differences in growth habit, and the unusual capsules on the tiny one make these clearly different species even if they are closely related compared to some other Delospermas.
near Manchester,  NW England, UK

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2010, 02:03:04 PM »
Ian,

Thank you for the thorough explanation. Perhaps it helps to annihilate the incorrect usage of the binomial
Delosperma alpinum.
Josef N.
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cohan

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2010, 07:01:27 PM »
thanks for the details (some repeated, i know) there was  a discussion on the hardy delos on alpine-L as well, with panayoti kelaidis detailing some of the collections; i guess i still haven't seen most of them often enough to really wrap myself around them and keep them sorted out mentally...
i have seen 'sani pass' offerings, not sure if they are the same one or not...

waiting to see if the two 'gold nugget' types i have have survived the winter-still in pots, sunk after an early cold blast (around -20) in oct; when the snow receded recently, they seemed to still be alive, with most of last season's foliage dead, but they still have to get through the rest of the spring freeze/thaw..
west central alberta, canada; 1000m; record temps:min -45C/-49F;max 34C/93F; http://picasaweb.google.ca/cactuscactus  http://urbanehillbillycanada.blogspot.com/