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Author Topic: delosperma & aizoaceae  (Read 42348 times)

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #285 on: November 04, 2011, 03:16:54 PM »
D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk
Chris,
You should explain the shorthands Eret and Matk. If it is the plant similar to Delosperma ashtonii,
I would appreciate an image of the receptacle.
Josef N.
gardening in Brno, Czechoslovakia
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Peter II

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #286 on: November 04, 2011, 10:30:31 PM »

Eret und Matk are german traders of plants.
Peter

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krisderaeymaeker

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #287 on: November 06, 2011, 06:50:36 PM »
Delosperma 'Peach Star' stil in flower here ...   
Kris De Raeymaeker

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Tiny Light

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #288 on: November 16, 2011, 05:59:52 AM »
Josef,
Franz Eret received it in the 60ties during a visit in Eastern-Berlin from the Matk-nursery. Topical both do not have this plant under culture - spent last month my (2009 hand-pollinated, but outdoors cultivated) capsules of D. brunnthaleri hort. ex. Eret ex. Matk for the next FgaS seed-list (2012).
Perhaps a good reason becoming a FgaS member for all those looking for this rather rare plant. ;D
D. sutherlandii and D. brunnthaleri were rather common in the former GDR and i think a real D. sutherlandii could perhaps still be found today in a lovely unknown collection of eastern Germany.

Here is a photo of the receptacle from D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk (2009)


The surface of the ovary, in former times also called "disk". This attribute can be used pretty well for a nice working key in Delosperma § Eximia - here you will be on the right way for delimitation within this section.
An astonishing result is btw. that D. esterhuyseniae (2009, next pic) is rather closely allied to D. sutherlandii, showing a very similar design of the ovary surface.


The ovary surface of D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk possess a remarkable central "cone-head" - looks a lot like the 5 stigmas are growing connected at their base - in my eyes THE distinguishing attribute for this suspected taxon.



On the yellow side of life

Delosperma carolinense (var. niveum) hort. ex. Eret growing outdoors 2008


Delosperma carolinense (var. niveum) greenhouse culture in a Botanical Garden 2007 (as Delosperma sp.)


Delosperma carolinense TS5709, 2010 (not Terry Smale or Tok Schoeman, still unkown collector, received from France around 2006)


The central yellow zone of flowers within some Delosperma species, for. ex. your/Marek's D. aff. hirtum or D. dyeri var. laxum, is rather due to an external pigment coating effekt of pollen.
This can be received from very heavy dew or water-supply during opening times of the flower.
The identification of a white flowered Delosperma from northern Lesotho and Natal under D. hirtum is relating to Elsa Pooley in Mountain Flowers - A Field Guide to the Flora of the Drakensberg and Lesotho (2003: 72-73) and based on the unpublished description of D. hirtum var. niveum by Mary Gwendoline O'Connor-Fenton (née Lavis) - see also BOL131458;; BOL131459; BOL131460; BOL131461; BOL131462 and BOL131463 (with a ;D on a certain Facebook entry). Both Ladies were erroneously identifying this species under D. hirtum, but representing rather a southern white flowered variety of D. carolinense N.E. Brown.
Hermann Jacobsen also published a photo (taken by K. Josefský) of the white flowered variety of D. carolinense erroneously twice under D. brunnthaleri (Jacobsen: Die Sukkulenten 1933: 112 & Handbuch der sukkulenten Pflanzen III 1955: 1307).
Well, this should be already enough to earn the first serious merits according D. aff. hirtum (Paní Holzbecher?), Josef... ;)

-Chris
în continental Europe, c. 360 ft. altitude, annual precipitation c. 610 mm.

-Altruism is quite sure the most endangered species on this planet!

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #289 on: November 22, 2011, 11:38:17 AM »
Here is a photo of the receptacle from D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk (2009)

It is not.
Quote
The central yellow zone of flowers within some Delosperma species, for. ex. your/Marek's D. aff. hirtum or D. dyeri var. laxum, is rather due to an external pigment coating effekt of pollen.
This can be received from very heavy dew or water-supply during opening times of the flower.

The centre of aff. hirtum is pea green if observed in indirect light and luminous yellow if observed in direct sunshine.
It may really be coloured by pollen dye but in ashtonii and deleeuwiae the pollen doesn't influence centre colour.

Quote
The identification of a white flowered Delosperma from northern Lesotho and Natal under D. hirtum is relating to Elsa Pooley in Mountain Flowers - A Field Guide to the Flora of the Drakensberg and Lesotho (2003: 72-73) and based on the unpublished description of D. hirtum var. niveum by Mary Gwendoline O'Connor-Fenton (née Lavis) - see also BOL131458;; BOL131459; BOL131460; BOL131461; BOL131462 and BOL131463 (with a ;D on a certain Facebook entry). Both Ladies were erroneously identifying this species under D. hirtum, but representing rather a southern white flowered variety of D. carolinense N.E. Brown.  

aff. hirtum is not the white-flowered plant in the pictures presented above. The leaves are considerably different, linear and greyish.
The plant presented by you really might be Delosperma carolinense, our certainly not.




Quote
Hermann Jacobsen also published a photo (taken by K. Josefský) of the white flowered variety of D. carolinense erroneously twice under D. brunnthaleri (Jacobsen: Die Sukkulenten 1933: 112 & Handbuch der sukkulenten Pflanzen III 1955: 1307).

Thrice, in Sukkulentenlexikon is the image reprinted too.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 01:36:43 PM by Great Moravian »
Josef N.
gardening in Brno, Czechoslovakia
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Krieg, Handel und Piraterie, dreieinig sind sie, nicht zu trennen
War, business and piracy are triune, not to separate
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Tiny Light

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #290 on: November 27, 2011, 03:42:39 PM »
Here is a photo of the receptacle from D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk (2009)


It is not.

Very comfortable and almost academic argumentation, Josef. ;) ;D

It would be a pretty nice gesture if you could give us here an impression/definition of what performs topical a receptacle in your eyes for Mesembs.
In this case we would all benefit from your extensive knowledge.  8)

Quote
The centre of aff. hirtum is pea green if observed in indirect light and luminous yellow if observed in direct sunshine.

A young flower still keeping all its pollen is rather translucent pea-green centered, as soon as the pollen ripe for takeoff and humidity high enough it is rather yellow, whether observed in indirect light or in direct sunshine.

Quote
It may really be coloured by pollen dye but in ashtonii and deleeuwiae the pollen doesn't influence centre colour.

Great to see that you already found almost also one next level attribute for further delimitation within Delosperma § Eximia.  8)
A real translucent-green flower centre is a rather rare attribute within this splendid genus and etremely rare within the mentioned section, but white petals can be influenced fore sure by this external pollen effect too.

Quote
aff. hirtum is not the white-flowered plant in the pictures presented above. The leaves are considerably different, linear and greyish.
The plant presented by you really might be Delosperma carolinense, our certainly not.

Yes, indeed. And already very obvious viewable. But now you know already one very probable ancestor of your shown aff. hirtum, performing here likely suspected the main influence in the flower.
Some more interesting next level attributes according your aff. hirtum can be found on Marek's homepage, showing there the same plant/type in an older status.
Do you need further assistance/guidance or got already an intuitiveness on what is meant with "merits" or some other next level attributes?

Quote
Thrice, in Sukkulentenlexikon is the image reprinted too.

Yes, reprinted at least thrice, still need to check up the two other editions and as well the complete older KuaS on occasion.

Can you provide any further information according locality/habitat or collector of aff. hirtum, than (reasonable suspected northern) "Lesotho"?


-Chris
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 03:44:35 PM by Tiny Light »
în continental Europe, c. 360 ft. altitude, annual precipitation c. 610 mm.

-Altruism is quite sure the most endangered species on this planet!

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #291 on: November 28, 2011, 03:05:58 PM »
Here is a photo of the receptacle from D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk (2009)


It is not.

Very comfortable and almost academic argumentation, Josef. ;) ;D

It is an image of a flower and not an image of receptacle structure showing glands and ovary top.
My argumentation was absolutely topical.

Quote
Quote
aff. hirtum is not the white-flowered plant in the pictures presented above. The leaves are considerably different, linear and greyish.
The plant presented by you really might be Delosperma carolinense, our certainly not.

Yes, indeed. And already very obvious viewable. But now you know already one very probable ancestor of your shown aff. hirtum, performing here likely suspected the main influence in the flower.

The seeds collected in Lesotho resulted in uniform seedlings. So the mother plant dwelling
somewhere in Lesotho was not a hybrid. Fertilization of all ovules by the pollen of
a different, but one, species is unlikely.
Josef N.
gardening in Brno, Czechoslovakia
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Krieg, Handel und Piraterie, dreieinig sind sie, nicht zu trennen
War, business and piracy are triune, not to separate
Goethe

kelaidis

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #292 on: November 29, 2011, 02:08:24 AM »
With winter setting in rather gently, I can finally take time to catch up with SRGC forum: it has been a rich one in this string of delospermas! I find the pictures and descriptions fascinating. I remember posting about our novelty ('Firespinner') which was sneak previewed by Mark McDonough...but I don't believe I have given you all a taste of some of our displays at Denver Botanic Gardens (and my home) where we have done some rather garish bedding out with them. After a long steppe winter, these bright colors don't clash quite as much as they might in most of your gentler, Maritime conditions!

I shall be posting these ten pictures in two lots of five each (I find the system will often balk at ten for me)

1) a glimpse of the north end of the raised beds in  South African Plaza--our most concentrated display of mesembs. It does this for several months, with scattered bloom the rest of the year (we even had a few blossoms this past week!)
2) a closer view showing the really distinctive color forms of some of the species and hybrids
3) another view of the south bed this time (the yellow Delosperma is a wild accession of D. nubigenum, much smaller than the typical cultivated form)
4) typical wild form of D. ashtonii in a crevice of my home garden.
5) The dwarf early yellow 'Gold Nugget' from Sani Pass in Mike Kintgen's private garden (the horticulturist who oversees the Rock Alpine Garden now)
6) Delosperma carterae 'Carlile Pink' introduced by www.sunscapes.net, an outstanding nursery in southern Colorado which has done a remarkable job with hardy Aizoaceae, and other xeric plants. Bill Adams (the owner) said this was the only mesemb that made it through last winter outdoors in pots for him (he had -30C cold last winter)
7) Delosperma dyeri at Denver Botanic Gardens. I beleive there are two clones distributed under this name: this is the more orange of the two.
8) Delosperma 'Lavender Ice', a sport that occured in a nursery in Southern Colorado (Perennial Favorites), off of Delosperma 'John Proffitt' Here. growing at Denver Botanic Gardens.
9) A vigorous collection from the Drakensberg I believe should be D. nelii growing in my home garden.
10) Another pink delosperma, this one collected in the east cape by Dan Johnson. Possibly a D. lavisiae selection.
Senior curator at Denver Botanic Gardens, I have rock gardened for over 50 years. Faves include cushion plants, bulbs, troughs, South African and Mediterranean plants and the windy steppes of Asia. The American West. (Oh yes, I love cacti, ferns and woody plants too...)

kelaidis

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #293 on: November 29, 2011, 04:14:57 AM »
Here are the second five:

6) Delosperma carterae 'Carlile Pink' introduced by www.sunscapes.net, an outstanding nursery in southern Colorado which has done a remarkable job with hardy Aizoaceae, and other xeric plants. Bill Adams (the owner) said this was the only mesemb that made it through last winter outdoors in pots for him (he had -30C cold last winter)
7) Delosperma dyeri at Denver Botanic Gardens. I beleive there are two clones distributed under this name: this is the more orange of the two.
8) Delosperma 'Lavender Ice', a sport that occured in a nursery in Southern Colorado (Perennial Favorites), off of Delosperma 'John Proffitt' Here. growing at Denver Botanic Gardens.
9) A vigorous collection from the Drakensberg I believe should be D. nelii growing in my home garden.
10) Another pink delosperma, this one collected in the east cape by Dan Johnson. Possibly a D. lavisiae selection.
Senior curator at Denver Botanic Gardens, I have rock gardened for over 50 years. Faves include cushion plants, bulbs, troughs, South African and Mediterranean plants and the windy steppes of Asia. The American West. (Oh yes, I love cacti, ferns and woody plants too...)

Tiny Light

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #294 on: November 30, 2011, 09:03:44 AM »
Here is a photo of the receptacle from D. brunnthaleri hort. ex Eret ex Matk (2009)


It is not.

Very comfortable and almost academic argumentation, Josef. ;) ;D

It is an image of a flower and not an image of receptacle structure showing glands and ovary top.
My argumentation was absolutely topical.


Your argumentation is pretty nice homegrown but sure not "absolutely topical", Josef   ;D ;D ;D
I rather suggest taking a deeper look on the simple, but splendid illustrated explanation according a receptacle on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptacle_%28botany%29
In this case the Colour of Hope is not pea-green, but nebulous-grey... ;)

On your own Czech homepage following information can be found a. o.:
receptakulum téměř kyjovité, u vrcholu poněkud stažené = receptacle subclavate, near apex somewhat constricted (D. basuticum)
receptakulum obráceně kuželovité, uprostřed víceméně stažené = receptacle obconic, near middle more or less constricted (D. congestum)
What kind of view do you think might have been described here by Mrs. Bolus?

Quote
The seeds collected in Lesotho resulted in uniform seedlings. So the mother plant dwelling
somewhere in Lesotho was not a hybrid. Fertilization of all ovules by the pollen of
a different, but one, species is unlikely.


Did not argue that aff. hirtum is a hybrid, nor that all ovules were fertilized by the pollen of one species, but trying to show you already the first rising of a reasonable suspected phylogenetic line.

Great to hear that the F1 generation is already homogenous, but this is still not a sufficient evidence for not being a hybrid - here you need to check up also the F2 generation for being homogenous or not.
I suggest you should become more familiar with the work of Gregor Johann Mendel [1822-1884], today referred to as the laws of Mendelian inheritance, especially with the 2nd rule ("Spaltungsregel").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Johann_Mendel

-Chris
în continental Europe, c. 360 ft. altitude, annual precipitation c. 610 mm.

-Altruism is quite sure the most endangered species on this planet!

Great Moravian

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #295 on: November 30, 2011, 05:43:55 PM »
Quote
Your argumentation is pretty nice homegrown but sure not "absolutely topical", Josef   ;D ;D ;D
I rather suggest taking a deeper look on the simple, but splendid illustrated explanation according a receptacle on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptacle_%28botany%29
In this case the Colour of Hope is not pea-green, but nebulous-grey... ;)

Receptacle is treated as a synonym of torus there. I wonder why. I other literature it is treated
as a synonym of hypanthium. I understand hypanthium whenever receptacle encountered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypanthium
E. g. Klíč ke květeně České republiky, Academia, Praha 2002
contains entry
češule, hypanthium, receptakulum
and Zahradnický slovník naučný requires explicitly the perianth origin of a receptacle  saying
Podobný útvar vzniká také rozšířením spodní části květních obalů
a tyčinek a nazývá se češule (receptaculum)

in the entry květní lůžko.
There obviously exist two different schools of botanical morphology, one defining
receptacle=torus, the other defining receptacle=hypanthium. Perhaps the two
publications mentioned above belong to a special Czech one which I am accustomed to.
In general, the hypanthium=receptacle is either perianth-derived, or torus-derived or combined.
The hypanthium=receptacle in Delosperma is a complex structure consisting of perigon tube,
bases of filaments, precisely of adelphiae of filaments,
disk bearing nectaries and in the images of Delosperma species
the top of ovary is always depicted too as you can easily check despite being not a compound of
the hypanthium=receptacle. The organ visible externally is simply perigon tube, nothing else,
which is a compound of hypanthium, but not torus.
Provided Ihlenfeldt was right having written in Feddes Rep. 63 (1960) : 7  the following.
Die Kelchblätter berinden mit ihrem unteren Teil den Achsenbecher
(LEINFELLNER 1952), ihre Mittelnerven bilden seine Kanten

On the previous page he explains why he speaks about calyx instead of perigon.
If he was in error, indicate the source of the new information. I am slightly old-fashioned.
The following information is intended for not sufficiently informed people, not for you.
In Delosperma, no calyx and no petals are present, the green organ is a perigon and the coloured
things petaliform staminodia.
Quote
On your own Czech homepage following information can be found a. o.:
receptakulum téměř kyjovité, u vrcholu poněkud stažené = receptacle subclavate, near apex somewhat constricted (D. basuticum)
receptakulum obráceně kuželovité, uprostřed víceméně stažené = receptacle obconic, near middle more or less constricted (D. congestum)
What kind of view do you think might have been described here by Mrs. Bolus?

You broke in my private files. The content is not viewed by google as I checked because it is not
directly accessible. I should realize how you could do it.
Quote
Quote
The seeds collected in Lesotho resulted in uniform seedlings. So the mother plant dwelling
somewhere in Lesotho was not a hybrid. Fertilization of all ovules by the pollen of
a different, but one, species is unlikely.


Did not argue that aff. hirtum is a hybrid, nor that all ovules were fertilized by the pollen of one species, but trying to show you already the first rising of a reasonable suspected phylogenetic line.

Great to hear that the F1 generation is already homogenous, but this is still not a sufficient evidence for not being a hybrid - here you need to check up also the F2 generation for being homogenous or not.
I suggest you should become more familiar with the work of Gregor Johann Mendel [1822-1884], today referred to as the laws of Mendelian inheritance, especially with the 2nd rule ("Spaltungsregel").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Johann_Mendel

If you analyse my statement carefully, you could observe I spoke about
the mother plant being not a hybrid. If it was, the progeny would not be homogeneous  in
selfing,  in backcross, in triplicate cross. I claimed the progeny to be unlikely F1 because it
would presume interspecific fertilization of all ovules by pollen of precisely one different species and
no intraspecific one and no self-fertilization. A situation hardly to imagine in natural conditions.
I studied plant biology six years, so basic notions are familiar to me.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 11:56:45 AM by Great Moravian »
Josef N.
gardening in Brno, Czechoslovakia
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Krieg, Handel und Piraterie, dreieinig sind sie, nicht zu trennen
War, business and piracy are triune, not to separate
Goethe

Tiny Light

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #296 on: December 02, 2011, 05:17:18 PM »
Quote
On your own Czech homepage following information can be found a. o.:
receptakulum téměř kyjovité, u vrcholu poněkud stažené = receptacle subclavate, near apex somewhat constricted (D. basuticum)
receptakulum obráceně kuželovité, uprostřed víceméně stažené = receptacle obconic, near middle more or less constricted (D. congestum)
What kind of view do you think might have been described here by Mrs. Bolus?
You broke in my private files. The content is not viewed by google as I checked because it is not
directly accessible. I should realize how you could do it.

Edit: David is sure right with the following feeling, thus i deceided to delete the original posting, containing nothing of further interest but the truth.

I only underline that i did not "broke in" Josef's "private files". They simply could be found in the past directly accessible on Josef's HP and in another internet group without responsibility from my side.


-Chris
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 03:29:32 AM by Tiny Light »
în continental Europe, c. 360 ft. altitude, annual precipitation c. 610 mm.

-Altruism is quite sure the most endangered species on this planet!

David Nicholson

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #297 on: December 02, 2011, 06:25:10 PM »
I have the feeling that the two of you should resolve your differences by another means other than a public Forum.
David Nicholson
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Maggi Young

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #298 on: December 02, 2011, 06:29:24 PM »
Thank you, David, I was about to say the same thing.

It may be simply the vestiges of my maternal instinct, but the phrase "play nicely, children" comes to mind. :)
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

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TheOnionMan

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Re: delosperma & aizoaceae
« Reply #299 on: December 02, 2011, 06:39:16 PM »
And I'm afraid Panayoti's delicious photos of Delosperma lawns got lost in the shuffle, such eye-candy, I'm particularly thrilled by D. dyeri with such brilliant silky orange flowers.
Mark McDonough
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