We hope you have enjoyed the SRGC Forum. You can make a Paypal donation to the SRGC by clicking the above button

Click Here To Go To The Main SRGC Site

Author Topic: Corydalis 2010  (Read 15026 times)

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2010, 02:56:04 PM »

Well, one can dream :)  C. flexuosa 'China Blue' and C. elata, two beautiful blue-flowered Chinese species, have been dependably perennial here for 8-9 years so far, so I hold out hope there are others that'll be growable.

C. elata is a terrific species, does not go dormant later in summer like flexuosa does but stays in good green growth, with a long summer season of beautiful blue flowers that uniquely smell of coconut perfume.

 McMark, are you growing "true" C. elata, or the C. omeiana that was for a long time being passed around by the name elata?

See Ian's Bulb Log on the subject of these two Corydalis, with pix:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2009Jun241245845561BULB_LOG__2509.pdf
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Worry is like a rocking chair, it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."

TheOnionMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
  • Country: us
  • the onion man has layers
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2010, 05:10:52 PM »
McMark, are you growing "true" C. elata, or the C. omeiana that was for a long time being passed around by the name elata?

See Ian's Bulb Log on the subject of these two Corydalis, with pix:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2009Jun241245845561BULB_LOG__2509.pdf


Well, that question comes as a surprise, so I did some research. It seems that C. omeiana was only described 3 years ago in 2007, whereas I had my plants (as C. elata) for over 10 years.  The comments and photos in the bulb log seem inconclusive to me, without sufficient diagnostic characteristics cited.  So I looked at Corydalis in Flora of China (now, there's a monumental genus to take on in a Flora... so many species, a difficult group to be sure).  It seems that the leaf characteristis on these two are variable and with the exception of leaflet size, not a distinguishing characteristic.  The subject plants are in the Corydalis section Elatae.

To make it easier to compare the two species, I copied and pasted info on both species and prepared a small chart of the most salient differences.  I also looked at the illustrations, which are very large in page size, the one of C. elata on a multi-species illustration, so I copied out just the pertinent parts and recomposed the images to be smaller.  I left the vertical arrangement of the C. elata flower, which I suppose was drawn that way just to fit onto the page in the multi-species illustration.  I put all this into a PDF and uploaded it here.  One key item to look at that separates Corydalis species, are the sepal characteristics. 

Come this June & July when this plant is in flower, I can compare against these recorded diagnostic characteristics, to see if it is elata, omieana, or one of several other very closely related species.  I also post two pics from 2001.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 05:14:01 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2010, 05:51:35 PM »
McMark, you may also like to see pages 136 and 137 in the book by Tebbit, Lidén and Zetterlund: Bleeding Hearts and Corydalis. If you don't have the book I will photograph the pages for you tomorrow..... coming up in next post!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:17:48 PM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Worry is like a rocking chair, it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2010, 06:10:01 PM »
Well, there you go, sometimes a chap carrying a camera just passes by at the right moment...... here  are the two pages I mentioned from the Bleeding Hearts and Corydalis book......
205811-0

205813-1


 I sincerely hope that the Brooklyn Botanic Garden will forgive this representation of these pages as fair use  of their material!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:19:16 PM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Worry is like a rocking chair, it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2010, 06:16:48 PM »
An aside to all readers:
Even if you are in possession of the Lidén and Zetterlund "Corydalis" book - ISBN 0-900048-66-2, published in 1997 by AGS Publications Ltd., I would recommend the book mentioned above  by  Mark Tebbit , Magnus Lidén and Henrik Zetterlund "Bleeding Hearts, Corydalis and their relatives" ISBN-13 978-0-88192-882-2, published in 2008 by the Timber Press.
At the very least it is a great supplement to the first book and I would contend it is more than that  :)
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Worry is like a rocking chair, it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."

TheOnionMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
  • Country: us
  • the onion man has layers
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2010, 06:35:30 PM »
An aside to all readers:
Even if you are in possession of the Lidén and Zetterlund "Corydalis" book - ISBN 0-900048-66-2, published in 1997 by AGS Publications Ltd., I would recommend the book mentioned above  by  Mark Tebbit , Magnus Lidén and Henrik Zetterlund "Bleeding Hearts, Corydalis and their relatives" ISBN-13 978-0-88192-882-2, published in 2008 by the Timber Press.
At the very least it is a great supplement to the first book and I would contend it is more than that  :)

I wish I had these books.  From the NARGS Book Service I borrowed the "Corydalis" book, always meant to purchase it.  I must get both some day.  Thanks for the two scanned pages... very interesting. Missing from the Flora of China descriptions is any mention of red spots and coloration at the junction of the leaf lobes, although that characteristic is common to elata, omeiana, and flexuosa so no help in differentiating between those three species.  However, reading the two pages, it still looks more and more that my plants are C. elata, here's why:  omeiana has "about 10 flowers" whereas elata has 10-25 flowers, my plants easily have more than 10 flowers per inflorescence.  Then there's the statement near the end that elata (and including flexuosa) have flowers with "exquisite fragrance like gardenia with a distinct touch of Cocos"... this is what I mentioned earlier, the perfume on my plants uniquely scented like coconut.

Note to myself:  compare my plants with all this info, when in flower in June-July.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:37:39 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28391
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2010, 06:53:52 PM »
Errrrr.... mmmmm.... the omeiana is scented, too, as are an awful lot of the corydalis of various sections that we grow    :D
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 08:25:34 PM by Maggi Young »
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Worry is like a rocking chair, it will give you something to do but it won't get you anywhere.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye."

TheOnionMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
  • Country: us
  • the onion man has layers
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2010, 07:03:36 PM »
Errrrr.... mmmmm.... the omieana is scented, too, as are an awful lot of the corydalis of various sections that we grow    :D


Of course, but the author specifically calls out the unique coconut scent of elata.  Although, I don't think scent can be used diagnostically for species identification, although interesting to take note of such features.

On the first batch of photos I posted, one can easily count 16-18 flowers per inflorescence (with more crowded buds at the apex), which is a problematic considering C. omieana is "about 10-flowered".  Next I'll post some photos sent to me by Gary Dunlop in the UK (is he a SRGC member?), showing a much darker blue flowered C. "elata".
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

TheOnionMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
  • Country: us
  • the onion man has layers
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2010, 07:11:31 PM »
Here is a composite photo of a deep dark blue form of Corydalis "elata" sent to me in 2001 by Gary Dunlop in the UK.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

Darren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1248
  • Country: gb
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2010, 08:12:11 PM »
I bought this from a well known bulb grower as the wendelboi x solida hybrid 'Hotlips' some years ago. Another well known bulb grower has questioned this ID. It does fit the description in Liden & Zetterlund: Dark red, a little on the cold side, slightly speckled.

Any thoughts anyone?

Darren Sleep. Nr Lancaster UK.

Hristo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2010, 10:09:48 PM »
Sorry Darren don't grow that one, nice red though.
Here today;
Corydalis afghanica x griffithii
Corydalis cava bulbosa
Corydalis hybrid foundling, caucasica as seed parent
Corydalis solida GP Baker
Corydalis solida 'Moonlight Shadow'
Corydalis solida ssp. solida - darkets un-named cultivar I have
Corydalis solida Transylvanica

Pascal B

  • Guest
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2010, 10:59:21 PM »

Of course, but the author specifically calls out the unique coconut scent of elata.  Although, I don't think scent can be used diagnostically for species identification, although interesting to take note of such features.


I disagree. Flowers are not like they are to be attractive for plant enthusiasts but to attract pollinators. Scent production is energy consuming and scent can be specifically targeted at a certain pollinator. Many taxonomists consider different pollinators (and therefore different pollination syndromes) a clear sign of a different species. In other genera like for instance the "big stinkers" Amorphophallus the scent has been extensively sampled at Kew and the smell of each species had a very specific chemical content mixture. To be honest, I think Corydalis seems to be too much split, not only by the Chinese but also by Western taxonomists often mis-using taxonomy to denote horticultural differences. I don't know how much molecular work has been done on Corydalis but it would not surprise me if all the closely related blue species consist of only a handful of polymorphic species. Proper fieldwork would be the key to this and study the variation.

Granted, smell is a difficult characteristic to use in a key but that doesn't mean it is not a important diagnostic tool for taxonomy. I am not a Corydalis specialist but If I read all these characteristics I can't really be convinced omeiana and elata are different. 2 species are only truly different if there is a stable character or character set that distinguishes them. If such a character can not be found it would be unwise to keep them separate. The difference between 10 or 20 flowers to me does not seem to be such a character.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 11:01:55 PM by Pascal B »

TheOnionMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
  • Country: us
  • the onion man has layers
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2010, 12:00:57 AM »
Of course, but the author specifically calls out the unique coconut scent of elata.  Although, I don't think scent can be used diagnostically for species identification, although interesting to take note of such features.


I disagree. Flowers are not like they are to be attractive for plant enthusiasts but to attract pollinators. Scent production is energy consuming and scent can be specifically targeted at a certain pollinator. Many taxonomists consider different pollinators (and therefore different pollination syndromes) a clear sign of a different species.

Historically, tangibly physical characteristics have been used in floral keys to differentiate plant species, although this too is a generalization, and there are exceptions.  Of those plants whereby some ephemeral characteristic plays a part, there are still a range of physical characteristics that also largely define the species. Of course, we've entered a new realm of plant sciences with DNA research and other ways of delineating plants, so the rules are quickly changing.

Granted, smell is a difficult characteristic to use in a key but that doesn't mean it is not a important diagnostic tool for taxonomy. I am not a Corydalis specialist but If I read all these characteristics I can't really be convinced omeiana and elata are different. 2 species are only truly different if there is a stable character or character set that distinguishes them. If such a character can not be found it would be unwise to keep them separate. The difference between 10 or 20 flowers to me does not seem to be such a character.

I agree, comparing the cited differences between the two Corydalis species, there are many characteristics listed that express an overlapping range of variability (the leaves in these 2 species for example), and there really aren't strong concrete differentiating characteristics to go by.  The differences I pulled out into a chart, seem to be those that are different (for example, one species having crested flowers, one without crests).  I have not gone through all of the Chinese Corydalis keys... it is EXTENSIVE, but from what I've seen so far, scent is not used as a defining characteristic for the species... I thought it interesting that it was mentioned in the "Bleeding Hearts, Corydalis and their relatives" pages that Maggi scanned.

But being no expert in Corydalis, and not seen enough of them, I don't know the extent of their variability, and what key characteristics help separate them out.  Moving over to the genus Allium, it can help to be aware of certain ephemeral (yet consistent) attributes as part of the knowledge of a particular species.  The midwest American Allium perdulce is named for it's incredibly sweet carnation-like scent, and uncharacteristically the fact this species is heavily perfumed gets mentioned in otherwise dry botanical floras.  Of course, this species is also rather distinct based on a number of physical characteristics. However, several other southwestern American Allium also have flowers as perfumed, although typically not recorded.

The converse can be true too.  I grew two forms of Allium paniculatum with identical appearance, tallish light pink flowered forms, one from Macedonia which had foul-smelling flowers (rare in Allium) and the other (from another European source) had no scent whatsoever.  In this example, it would be unreliable to use scent as a species determination factor.

There are lots of plant species "odorum" or "odoratum" that become assigned to a species, mostly because it's a unique or notable characteristic for whatever genus the plant belongs too.  I'm reminded of the weedy Nothoscordum inodorum, which has very sweetly scented flowers, but the name was given for this species lack of an alliacious scent in the foliage and bulbs typical of Nothoscordums.

In 1994, in a publication "New Taxa in Allium L. subg. Melanocrommyum from Central Asia" by F.O. Khassanov & R.M. Fritsch, a new subsection is published as "Subsect. Odoratae R.M.Fritsch", for a group of allied species where the flowers are "intensely sweet-scenting somewhat like hyacinths, not faintly honey-like in most other Allium species".  Of course, there are important physical characteristics that also help define this subsection... a rather articial grouping or organization tactic used in large genera.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

Susan Band

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
  • Country: 00
    • Pitcairn Alpines
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2010, 09:21:03 AM »
Here is a comparison of the same bed of Corydalis Beth Evans flowering om March 17th 2009 and March 24th 2010.
I know the light is different but I feel that this year's are a much stronger brighter colour. I thought maybe it was because it was further on in the year but it is only a week difference  :-\
Susan
Susan Band, Pitcairn Alpines, ,PERTH. Scotland


Susan's website:
http://www.pitcairnalpines.co.uk

Ian Y

  • Bulb Despot
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1001
  • Country: scotland
  • Why grow one bulb when you can grow two:-))
    • Direct link to the Bulb Log SRGC
Re: Corydalis 2010
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2010, 02:50:17 PM »
Hi Susan, since you first mentioned the colour being more intense I have to say that I do agree to some extent that the colours are perhaps a bit more bright this year.
This could be due to a number of combined factors the cold and the light levels being two of the main ones.

However I think the light we view them in also comes into play and this becomes even more extreme when seen though a camera.

Look at the two pictures below both exactly the same plants of Corydalis 'Beth Evans' taken about 4 minutes apart from different directions and you can see how important the light you take the pictutre under is to the colour we see.

Not so impressive as your great expanse of pink.
Ian Young, Aberdeen North East Scotland   - 
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/bulblog.html