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Author Topic: Allium 2010  (Read 40421 times)

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #495 on: October 22, 2010, 01:46:58 PM »
Allium cristophii ( is it really spelled without the 'h' after the 'c', Mark?) ...And what I got as Allium acuminatum from a Seedex, but is it really A. murrayanum???   cheers   fermi   


Not sure on the IDs, but I'm sure that McMark will know ;)  ;D
However, I do know that A cristophii is spelled like that and A murrayanum is a synonym for A acuminatum.


Diane, correct on both accounts, but there's more:

The name A. murrayanum was published by Regel in Gartenflora 1873, long since a synonym of A. acuminatum.  The problem is, Allium "murrayanum" of horticulture is universally Allium unifolium, not truly as a synonym but as an imposter.  I'm afraid the European bulb trade has firmly entrenched the mistake into Horticulture, and if you Google Allium murrayanum, you'll still find lots of nurseries sell it thusly named.  Not sure how after 125+ years this misidentification is so widespread in Europe and persists to this day, when the knowledge that plants under this name in Hort is always Allium unifolium has also been known for quite some time.

One UK nursery sells the plant correctly as A. unifolium, but says "also sometimes known as Allium murrayanum, and Allium uniflorum var. murrayanum".  http://www.kevockgarden.co.uk/plantlist/Sb_allium_unifolium.htm
To be clear, the combination A. unifolium "var. murrayanum" was never a published name.  The curious thing about this widespread mistake is that the name "murrayanum" was early on (in the latter 1800s) sunk into synonymy, and it's one of those names so little used in the earlier days of American taxonomy that it is even dropped from the synonymy status, so most floras such as Jepson's Manual of the Flowering Plants of California don't even mention murrayanum, even though both acuminatum and unifolium grow in California.  The old name murrayanum is even missing from the Nomenclator Alliorum name compendium.

So Fermi, a long way to say, your plant is Allium unifolium. :)
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

Oron Peri

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #496 on: October 22, 2010, 02:05:00 PM »
Two of the three  autumnal flowering Allium in Crete, Photos from couple of days ago.


Allium chamaespathum - E Crete

Allium tardans - E Crete
This particular A. tardans has a nice reddish color.



« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 06:20:27 PM by Oron Peri »
Tivon, in the lower Galilee, north Israel.
200m.

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #497 on: October 22, 2010, 03:08:21 PM »
Two of the three  autumnal flowering Allium in Crete, Photos from couple of days ago.
This particular A. tardans has a nice reddish color.

Very nice Oron, love seeing these late bloomers.  I had not seen A. chamaespathum before and didn't realize it flowers this late.  In Mathew's A Review of Allium section Allium the flowering time is given as (July--)August-October.  Seeing that it is found in Greece, Crete and Albania, from sea level up to 2135 m, I suppose it is not surprising there is such a broad bloom time reported.  Even though greenish-white flowered, I think it's a charming little autumn bulb, thanks for showing.  The A. tardans is a good-looking form too, and aptly named, you can see the obvious Codonoprasum alliance to species like paniculatum, and bearing some similarity to Scorodon section A. callimischon ssp. callimischon as well.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 03:10:47 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

Oron Peri

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #498 on: October 22, 2010, 03:20:45 PM »
Thanks Mark,

I have seen A. chamaespathum in many occasions, never before September and  in some cases till early November.
This plant was growing at 180m, both species share the same habitat.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 03:27:51 PM by Oron Peri »
Tivon, in the lower Galilee, north Israel.
200m.

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #499 on: October 25, 2010, 06:35:28 PM »
A fellow NARGS member, Harold Peachey, who lives in upper state New York, USA, posted a photo showing a fine autumnal clump of Allium thunbergii (white form), growing in his garden.  Harold has given me permission to repost his photo here.

Note on the older leaves, they age an orange color as seen on the purple 'Ozawa' selection.  You can also see how the leaves are visibly channeled.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:37:00 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

fermides

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #500 on: October 26, 2010, 08:37:13 AM »
So Fermi, a long way to say, your plant is Allium unifolium. :)
But they've got more tha one leaf! ;D ;D ;D Thanks for clearing that up, Mark.
Oron,
that green flowering allium (A. chamaespathum) looks amazing - almost fluorescent! Thanks for sharing the pic with us.
cheers
fermi
Mr Fermi de Sousa, Redesdale,
Victoria, Australia

annew

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #501 on: October 27, 2010, 10:33:34 AM »
Would you care to pronounce on my Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa", Mark?
MINIONS! I need more minions! And PIGEONS!!! In fact, even one would be good..
Anne Wright, Yorkshire, England

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TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #502 on: October 27, 2010, 03:50:55 PM »
Would you care to pronounce on my Allium thunbergii 'Ozawa", Mark?

Anne, did you compare your plant's details to a couple photos that show diagnostic leaf characteristics; hollow and triangular in cross-section = thunbergii, and nearly round and solid (and thready narrow leaves) in A. virgunculae?  Kind of hard to tell from your photos, but the foliage looks narrow and thready and the heads are few-flowered, so hear again it is probably Allium virgunculae and not A. thunbergii 'Ozawa'... it looks somewhat similar to Luit's allium.  And as I said before, having A. virgunculae is no consolation prize, its an excellent dwarf species that is more rare in horticulture than A. thunbergii.

I'm showing an updated photo of A. thunbergii 'Ozawa', with a few blooms on the white thunbergii starting to open.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

alpinelover

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #503 on: October 27, 2010, 06:42:09 PM »
I take these photo's a few weeks ago of this Allium. Today, the plant is still flowering. I bought these plant many years ago under the name Allium thunbergii.
Lichtervelde, West-Vlaanderen

Lvandelft

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #504 on: October 28, 2010, 01:06:02 PM »
Frankie, your plant looks very much like my plant and I presume our plants come from the same Belgian source.
Now I am curious where Anne's plant comes from in England, her's is obviously the same plant as our plant.
I already explained that my plant probably was imported  from GB and I asked our (Belgian) source if they still knew where it came from.
Alas I did not receive an answer. You are living not so far away so maybe you can give it a try as well??

Great to have another Belgian on the Forum  :D
Luit van Delft, right in the heart of the beautiful flowerbulb district, Noordwijkerhout, Holland.

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #505 on: October 28, 2010, 01:15:53 PM »
I take these photo's a few weeks ago of this Allium. Today, the plant is still flowering. I bought these plant many years ago under the name Allium thunbergii.

Frankie, your plant looks very much like my plant and I presume our plants come from the same Belgian source.
Now I am curious where Anne's plant comes from in England, her's is obviously the same plant as our plant.
I already explained that my plant probably was imported  from GB and I asked our (Belgian) source if they still knew where it came from.
Alas I did not receive an answer. You are living not so far away so maybe you can give it a try as well??


Luit, yes I agree Frankie's plant looks similar to yours, here again with thready leaves and few-flowered heads of deep color.  I will follow with some new information found on these confusing Japanese autumn blooming onions.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #506 on: October 28, 2010, 01:57:10 PM »
Over the years (decades) I've been frustrated with the inadequacy of taxonomy around many variable forms of autumn-blooming Alliums from Japan and Korea.  It seems only a few species are described, yet plants can be found that fall between the taxonomic cracks; I've felt for a long time that a taxonomic update is sorely needed.  Taxonomic review was late to arrive, and what has been published, is typically published in Japanese, or available only by purchase.

I did finally find a 1998 mixed Japanese/English publication (PDF file) that reviews these Alliums (the A. thunbergii complex) and contains a key to the related species.  Unfortunately, it is not looking at the whole group, but only regionally of Southern Japan and islands, but it gives further clues. I have uploaded the PDF and as well, posted screen captures of key pages and descriptions.  The publication defines a new species, A. austrokyushuense, and mention of another more recent species, A. amamianum, a synonym for A. pseudojaponicum.
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/els/110003758641.pdf?id=ART0004970799&type=pdf&lang=en&host=cinii&order_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1292541216&cp=
If the link above does not work, use the following link instead:
http://www.plantbuzz.com/buzz/Allium_thunbergii_group_in_southern_Kyushu_and_Ryukyu_Islands.pdf

Years ago there was publication of Allium pseudojaponicum (see link below), which is like thunbergii but with flat leaves (matches a plant I'm growing)... however Nomenclator Alliorum 1998 puts this in synonymy with A. thunbergii.  However, newer Japanese publications maintain this species, so it seems reasonable to do likewise.  
http://hanamist.sakura.ne.jp/flower/tansiyo/yuri/tamamura.html

The small key to these autumn-blooming Japanese species only mentions type A. virgunculae and one variety (var. yakushimense), although as posted above, as of 2009 there are two more varieties of A. virgunculae (var. kiiense, var. koshikiense), these will not be in the key because they're newer.  I'd like to get a paper that describes the revision of A. virgunculae, although it's only available for purchase, $30 US dollars for 4 pages!  I need to refrain from any such purchases while unemployed, but will earmark it for later.

So, maybe some of these dwarf Japanese fall-blooming onions that many of us have, can be ascribed to species for a better fit than we've been able to all these years.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 06:46:35 PM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

alpinelover

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #507 on: October 30, 2010, 12:05:17 AM »
Frankie, your plant looks very much like my plant and I presume our plants come from the same Belgian source.
Now I am curious where Anne's plant comes from in England, her's is obviously the same plant as our plant.
I already explained that my plant probably was imported  from GB and I asked our (Belgian) source if they still knew where it came from.
Alas I did not receive an answer. You are living not so far away so maybe you can give it a try as well??

Great to have another Belgian on the Forum  :D

My copy comes from alpine nursery at Cathy Portier, near Brugge. For now I do not know where it originated.
Lichtervelde, West-Vlaanderen

annew

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #508 on: October 30, 2010, 11:26:16 AM »
I have looked at my two plants of A. 'Ozawa'. I'm afraid I only keep detailed records of my narcissus and galanthus acquisitions, so unfortunately don't have the source of these, but it is likely to be Lamberton, Edrom or Pottertons nurseries.
The photos below show one plant on the left and the other on the right with their leaves then their flower stems. I'm still confused. The leaves of both are about 1mm across, both hollow, but at least the dark-flowered plant has distinctly angled leaves.
MINIONS! I need more minions! And PIGEONS!!! In fact, even one would be good..
Anne Wright, Yorkshire, England

www.dryad-home.co.uk

Lvandelft

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Re: Allium 2010
« Reply #509 on: October 31, 2010, 10:26:15 PM »
Anne, the leaf stems of my plant are not hollow, so we will have a different plant in the garden.
I think there are several seedling plants around of the A. thunbergii small type from Japan with more or less dark flowers.
Here is a link to a picture by Tod Boland:
http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=302
Luit van Delft, right in the heart of the beautiful flowerbulb district, Noordwijkerhout, Holland.

 

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