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Author Topic: Allium 2011  (Read 34899 times)

Maggi Young

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2011, 06:29:25 PM »
Wietse, see this post to see an allium identified as A. carolinianum in the Tien Shan.....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4985.msg135688#msg135688
 and see the following page to read that
Quote
The name "polyphyllum" is a synonym of A. carolinianum.

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=110&taxon_id=200027456
Allium carolinianum DC., ; Redoute Liliac. 2: t. 101 (1804).

Synonyms:
Allium aitchisonii Boiss.
Allium blandum Wall.
Allium obtusifolium Klotzsch
Allium polyphyllum Kar. & Kir.
Allium thomsonii Baker

4800-5100 m; C. Asia, Afghanistan, Himalaya (Kashmir to Nepal)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 10:53:53 AM by Maggi Young »
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TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2011, 11:58:21 AM »
Thanks Maggi.  Wietse, will try to answer your questions tonight or the following day... off to work.
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
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antennaria at charter.net

fermides

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2011, 11:50:49 PM »
allium regelii is again an allium that is very difficult to grow. It stays 1 bulb for about 7 years now, and I have about 3 or 4 seeds every year, but they never germinate 
                        

Wieste,
that is really sad - It's one allium that I've wanted to grow since first seeing it in "The Bulb Book" by Rix and Phillips around1981!
cheers
fermi
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Victoria, Australia

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #93 on: June 15, 2011, 08:04:53 AM »
Fermi

It's probably the most sought after Allium
Maybe we can find a military to collect some
so we can have not sterile seeds

Roland
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wmel

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #94 on: June 15, 2011, 06:33:14 PM »
Thanks Maggi; I don't Think my carolinianum is the real one, but I will wait to see what Mark can te me about that...
Fermi and Roland it is realy a shame allium regelii is not growing. Everyone who come to see alliums with us wants to buy allium regelii.....
And I would like some more to cross... very much...

Today I have been visiting some allium growers in Noord Holland and made some photos from there fields.....
Wietse Mellema, Klutenweg 39 I, Creil  Netherlands
Bulbs and bulbflower grower of allium and tulips

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #95 on: June 16, 2011, 03:51:51 AM »

siskyonense 2 2011.JPG
schubertii x rose nigrum 2 2011.JPG
howelii clokeyi 2 2011.JPG
crenulatum x falcifolium 1 2011.JPG
crenulatum 1 2011.JPG
chloranthum 2 2011.JPG


Wietse, it is incredible that you grow so many Allium species, and so many American species, which as I said before, are nearly absent from cultivation here in the USA.

You might want to check and compare the description of Allium siskiyouense (note spelling) versus the very closely related Allium falcifolium.  I think your plant looks more like A. falcifolium, which has broader leaves and longer/larger flowers that Allium siskiyouense (syn. A. falcifolium var. demissum).  

I include some photo links from the CalPhotos website of Allium siskiyouense that depict what I believe is the right species, but be careful of CalPhotos... a good site, but because the photos can be user-submitted, often there are mistakes, and 2 or more species might be submitted incorrectly as a certain species, such as with the case with A. siskiyouense.  These photos show A. siskiyouense:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0706+0390
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0502+0384
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=5315+2021+0941+0029

Species descriptions in Flora of North America to compare:
Allium siskiyouense (Allium falcifolium var. demissum)
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242101404
Allium falcifolium
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242101357

Love the look of Allium schubertii x nigrum (pink form); will this beauty be coming to market sometime in the future???

On the A. crenulatum x falcifolium hybrid, please tell me more about it; where did the hybrids occur, is the bed of said hybrids shown in the photo seed grown or do they represent bulb divisions.  The two species are somewhat close morphologically, so it is hard to say whether they truly represent that hybrid.

Thanks for showing all these, much to consider!
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #96 on: June 16, 2011, 04:06:48 AM »

Today I have been visiting some allium growers in Noord Holland and made some photos from there fields.....
Allium 'Summer Drummer'
Allium 'Spider'
Allium 'Summer Drummer' low angle.


Weitse, is Allium 'Summer Drummer' a named selection of A. ampeloprasum?  Or possibly a hybrid of Allium ampeloprasum?

Allium 'Spider' is awesome, can you remind us what the hybrid cross is?  Will this one become available commercially!  I'm assuming the masses of yellow in the field behind it is Allium moly?

In the 3rd photo that shows the low angle of Allium 'Summer Drummer', what is the white Allium species growing in endless rows?
Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #97 on: June 16, 2011, 04:20:18 AM »
Wietse, see this post to see an allium identified as A. carolianum in the Tien Shan.....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4985.msg135688#msg135688
 and see the following page to read that
Quote
The name "polyphyllum" is a synonym of A. carolinianum.




Note spelling:  Allium carolinianum.

Mark McDonough
Massachusetts, USA (near the New Hampshire border)
USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

TheOnionMan

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #98 on: June 16, 2011, 04:36:37 AM »
There are some allium we bought the last years from several addresses, but we do not see any differences between them.
Can someone tel me the difference between allium platicaule and allium tolmiei var. platyphyllum??
And is there a picture of allium carolinianum, because what we have as carolinianum is something else. and what is the allium we call carolinianum???? (see photo below)


Regarding the differences between Allium platycaule and Allium tolmiei var. tolmiei (syn. A. tolmiei v. platyphyllum), the best thing to do is compare the key and descriptions in Flora of North America here:  http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=101086

Wietse, not sure what Allium species that is posing as A. carolinianum, it has open flowers which is NOT characteristic for Allium carolinianum.  I'll share some links that show the closed pinched flowers of A. carolinianum with the long stamens squeezing out from the tightly pinched florets, having a pin-cushion look to the flower head.

Allium carolinianum photos:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173205#msg173205
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5766.0;attach=254368;image

...probably the best resource is to check out the database records (with images) of the IPK Taxonomic Allium reference collection (Institute of Plant Genetics in Gatersleben, Germany).  In the two links I supply, it'll show the start of multiple records for their collections of Allium carolinianum; there are 25 records total... most have photos.  For each link, click on the "page" icon on the left of each record, then use the right-arrow ">" key to move through the records, if there are photos, the thumbnails will display... click on any thumbnail to show a larger image.  Some of these records will show the characteristic closed-&-pinched blooms of the species, the florets held in tight ball-shaped heads.  The species is widely distributed and extremely variable.  I also include a couple links of an old reluctant-to-increase plant from my garden.

http://pgrc-35.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=265:3:1767063461965043::NO::P3_SCIENTIFIC_NAME:243
http://pgrc-35.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=265:3:1767063461965043::NO::P3_SCIENTIFIC_NAME:242

A couple of past links announcing the IPK Taxonomic Allium reference collection (Institute of Plant Genetics in Gatersleben, Germany):
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=177.msg4950#msg4950
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173150#msg173150
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 04:39:56 AM by TheOnionMan »
Mark McDonough
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USDA Zone 5
antennaria at charter.net

wmel

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #99 on: June 16, 2011, 07:46:48 AM »

Today I have been visiting some allium growers in Noord Holland and made some photos from there fields.....
Allium 'Summer Drummer'
Allium 'Spider'
Allium 'Summer Drummer' low angle.


Weitse, is Allium 'Summer Drummer' a named selection of A. ampeloprasum?  Or possibly a hybrid of Allium ampeloprasum?

Allium 'Spider' is awesome, can you remind us what the hybrid cross is?  Will this one become available commercially!  I'm assuming the masses of yellow in the field behind it is Allium moly?

In the 3rd photo that shows the low angle of Allium 'Summer Drummer', what is the white Allium species growing in endless rows?

About 15 years ago we collected some seeds from Creta (Griekenland). Most of them were allium ampeloprasum in variable collours. One of the seeds turned out to be much higher, and had different bulb grow and different flowers. This plant was 2.5 meter high and while flowering (dark purple with beautiful white when each flower is opening). The bulbs are also much bigger than ampeloprasum, and the are very easy growing and make a lot ofsets. While flowering the stem is also getting dark purple?!
After growing for a few years we brought flowers to the auction in aalsmeer and the were very expensive so as nobody new what it was we registrate it as allium Summer Drummer

Allium Spider is a cross of allium schubertii and allium atropurpureum, and I selected this one because it is a lookalike of schubertii, but a little smaller, some higher and much darker colour. also it is a much better grower making 5 til 15 ofsets. It is already on the marked by Dix Export, Peter Nijssen and others. The yellow allium on the photo is as you wrote allium moly.

In the last photo next to the Summer Drummer you see a white selection made by us of allium amplectens. It has very beutifull red bulbs and the flowers are pure white with soft pinkish pollen called Gracefull
Wietse Mellema, Klutenweg 39 I, Creil  Netherlands
Bulbs and bulbflower grower of allium and tulips

wmel

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #100 on: June 16, 2011, 08:36:47 AM »

siskyonense 2 2011.JPG
schubertii x rose nigrum 2 2011.JPG
crenulatum x falcifolium 1 2011.JPG

You might want to check and compare the description of Allium siskiyouense (note spelling) versus the very closely related Allium falcifolium.  I think your plant looks more like A. falcifolium, which has broader leaves and longer/larger flowers that Allium siskiyouense (syn. A. falcifolium var. demissum). 

Love the look of Allium schubertii x nigrum (pink form); will this beauty be coming to market sometime in the future???

On the A. crenulatum x falcifolium hybrid, please tell me more about it; where did the hybrids occur, is the bed of said hybrids shown in the photo seed grown or do they represent bulb divisions.  The two species are somewhat close morphologically, so it is hard to say whether they truly represent that hybrid.


Allium siskiouense I bought from Janis Ruksans. He describes it as a smaller version of allium falcifolium and in my garden it is indeed.
Having them both I can see they are different species (see my photo's)

Allium crenulatum x allium falcifolium on the photo  is a mix of seedlings in a almost same colour. We already put out al the white flowering seedlings (the were the normale crenulatum) Growing these two alliums next to each other you almost get a 100% cross by bees. You can easy see the flowercolour bij looking to the bulbs as crenulatum has white bulbs and falcifolium pink/red bulbs, all the seedlings have soft pink bulbs. I am 100% sure its a cross between these two alliums.

allium schubertii x nigrum rose hybrid has again a big problem, because it is not making any ofsets and stil not growing from seed. so I think it will not be commercially available very soon. And that is a shame because it's a real beauty I think.

By the way, Mark, Thanks for the loads of information about carolinianum. I still don't know what my "allium carolinianum" is, but the real one is a beauty!
Wietse Mellema, Klutenweg 39 I, Creil  Netherlands
Bulbs and bulbflower grower of allium and tulips

bulborum

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #101 on: June 16, 2011, 09:10:06 AM »

allium schubertii x nigrum rose hybrid has again a big problem, because it is not making any ofsets and stil not growing from seed. so I think it will not be commercially available very soon. And that is a shame because it's a real beauty I think.

Wietse

maybe you can cross it again with A. nigrum
or A. atropurpureum
and you will have your offsets

Roland
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RGB or RBGG means:
We collect mother plants or seeds ourself in the nature and multiply them later on the nursery

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Regelian

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #102 on: June 16, 2011, 09:52:02 AM »
Nice to know the parents of 'Spider'.  I have/had 3 from Nijssen, but they were all virused and I tossed them after bloom.  I hope this is not the case for all stocks available, as this is a very nice allium.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 10:11:41 AM by Regelian »
Jamie Vande
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Germany

Boyed

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2011, 06:13:34 PM »
I am very impressed with allium SPIDER. Very elegant and catchy cultivar, which would be ideal for garden decoration!!!!!!!!! Will put it in my wants list for sure.

Please, who can help me with this allium cultivar identification. I got it from my colleague, who just grow bulbs for cutting and selling and takes minimum interest in thier names. So it came to me without a name. I thought that it was allium 'Globemaster', but anyway I have some doubts as it it not as big as I expect. It is about 120 cm tall with flowers heads of around 13 cm in diameter. Catalogues usually show flower heads and part of stem for many allium cultivars, so those photos are not of much use for ID purposes.
Zhirair, Tulip collector, bulb enthusiast
Vanadzor, ARMENIA

bulborum

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Re: Allium 2011
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2011, 06:59:27 PM »
Boyed

Here is a picture from the real Allium Globemaster
look for the double part in the left flower-stem
this is specific for Allium Globemaster

I hope this helps

Roland
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